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3M heads to trial in ‘existential’ $143B forever-chemicals litigation

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Re: 3M heads to trial in ‘existential’ $143B forever-chemicals litigation

#31

Post by CameronNemo »

slymon99 wrote: post #17
TheAceOfHearts wrote: post #5

> Financial research firm CreditSights estimates that 3M could ultimately be on the hook for nationwide PFAS cleanup costs of up to $142.7 billion. That’s almost triple the company’s $53 billion market capitalization, and that’s before any personal injury claims and other lawsuits. What does this actually mean? It's just showing off a big number without giving any real context. 3M is the only manufacturer of tons of…

They go bankrupt, because their liabilities exceed their assets. There are three main sets of creditors - the US government who are receiving this $142.7 billion, equity shareholders who own $MMM, and bondholders. In a bankruptcy, you arrange levels of creditors by "seniority", where more senior creditors are paid first. In this case, I would imagine the levels of seniority are: 1. The US government 2. Bondholders 3.…

The shareholders shouldn't just get zeroed. There should be a clawback of profits made by 3M since the 1970s. Raid my 401k -- someone has to pay.

Re: 3M heads to trial in ‘existential’ $143B forever-chemicals litigation

#32

Post by s1artibartfast »

batmenace wrote: post #10
TheAceOfHearts wrote: post #5

> Financial research firm CreditSights estimates that 3M could ultimately be on the hook for nationwide PFAS cleanup costs of up to $142.7 billion. That’s almost triple the company’s $53 billion market capitalization, and that’s before any personal injury claims and other lawsuits. What does this actually mean? It's just showing off a big number without giving any real context. 3M is the only manufacturer of tons of…

Well if the company goes bankrupt, theoretically other companies can buy e.g. 3M's patents / processes / subsidiaries and continue their production. THe company isn't unprofitable, so it would be sold off in parts and the proceeds of the sale (theoretically) would go towards settling lawsuits.

or it might just be sold as a whole to another company, or continue to exist post bankruptcy

Re: 3M heads to trial in ‘existential’ $143B forever-chemicals litigation

#33

Post by johnfn »

bastard_op wrote: post #19

So what, they'll pay a few million (even few billion) fine, and go back to doing it anyways. Having grown up as part of the "Maryvale Cancer Cluster" in Arizona in the 70's with DuPont dumping fluorine and other bad things into the well water and giving most of my family leukemia, cancer, and who knows what else. Class action ensued, DuPont lawyers fought it for 30 years, end of the day my dad got a check for $200 do…

Huh? The point of an 'existential' trial is that it's 'existential' i.e. it threatens the existence of the business.

Re: 3M heads to trial in ‘existential’ $143B forever-chemicals litigation

#34

Post by moomoo3000 »

paiute wrote: post #16
TheAceOfHearts wrote: post #5

> Financial research firm CreditSights estimates that 3M could ultimately be on the hook for nationwide PFAS cleanup costs of up to $142.7 billion. That’s almost triple the company’s $53 billion market capitalization, and that’s before any personal injury claims and other lawsuits. What does this actually mean? It's just showing off a big number without giving any real context. 3M is the only manufacturer of tons of…

I'm starting to see a pattern which basically amounts to corporate shakedowns. I think the trend has only been accelerating since Perdue Parma. They will take the money and never do a thing to clean up the chemicals.

Are there examples of that happening?

Re: 3M heads to trial in ‘existential’ $143B forever-chemicals litigation

#35

Post by CameronNemo »

omeysalvi wrote: post #3

Johnson and Johnson tried to spin up a subsidiary and shift all the blame to it for including asbestos in talcum powder for decades. Thankfully, the courts saw through the move and made them pay billions of dollars too

See also DuPont spinning out Chemours

https://www.northcarolinahealthnews.org/2023/06/08/critics-s...

Re: 3M heads to trial in ‘existential’ $143B forever-chemicals litigation

#36

Post by BobbyJo »

CoastalCoder wrote: post #12
delfinom wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Government bailout, it's clearly too big to fail

I wonder - could a bankruptcy court simply transfer ownership of all 3M stock to the injured parties? Seems to me that would make them as whole as possible, while retaining 3M's ability to manufacture other crucial products.

That's effectively how bankruptcy works but with more paperwork. You take assets (whether it's the deeds to the equipment or ownership of the whole company via stock) and you give the value of that (in the form of money or assets) to the claimants.

Either way it's a transfer of wealth from the current business owners (stockholders) to claimants, just a matter of how that transfer happens.

Re: 3M heads to trial in ‘existential’ $143B forever-chemicals litigation

#37

Post by [deleted] »

delfinom wrote: post #6
TheAceOfHearts wrote: post #5

> Financial research firm CreditSights estimates that 3M could ultimately be on the hook for nationwide PFAS cleanup costs of up to $142.7 billion. That’s almost triple the company’s $53 billion market capitalization, and that’s before any personal injury claims and other lawsuits. What does this actually mean? It's just showing off a big number without giving any real context. 3M is the only manufacturer of tons of…

Government bailout, it's clearly too big to fail

[deleted]

Re: 3M heads to trial in ‘existential’ $143B forever-chemicals litigation

#40

Post by BiteCode_dev »

bastard_op wrote: post #19

So what, they'll pay a few million (even few billion) fine, and go back to doing it anyways. Having grown up as part of the "Maryvale Cancer Cluster" in Arizona in the 70's with DuPont dumping fluorine and other bad things into the well water and giving most of my family leukemia, cancer, and who knows what else. Class action ensued, DuPont lawyers fought it for 30 years, end of the day my dad got a check for $200 do…

I'm always amazed that in cases like this nobody gets crazy and try to get justice themselves.

There are so many guns in the US, and we hear about rogue snipers and school shooters, but never about one guy that decided a CEO should pay for his bad deeds in blood.

Maybe it shows that the average human being is quite stable and peaceful?

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