June 2023 Data Dump is missing • Hacker News Board

Re: June 2023 Data Dump is missing

#31

Post by josephcsible » Fri, Jun 09, 2023, 2:33 PM UTC

endisneigh wrote: post #28

bioemerl wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Given that this seems to happen all the time without antitrust issues it probably wouldn't, even though I feel like it should. What we need is a legal way for companies to keep the data open, but also require OpenAI and friends to pay them for it.

> What we need is a legal way for companies to keep the data open, but also require OpenAI and friends to pay them for it. inherently not possible as then it would not be "open" to begin with.

There are ways to require payment for some uses of things that are legitimately open. As an example, consider the practice of selling exceptions to the GPL, as is done for Qt.

Re: June 2023 Data Dump is missing

#32

Post by pixl97 » Fri, Jun 09, 2023, 2:35 PM UTC

bagasme wrote: post #11

I guess this is a defensive move against being inadvertently used for ChatGPT model.

I think you mean more like a "thieves have stole the horse! quick close the barn door"

Re: June 2023 Data Dump is missing

#33

Post by the_pwner224 » Fri, Jun 09, 2023, 2:36 PM UTC

lumb63 wrote: post #16

This, along with recent Reddit goings-on has made me realize a major risk with the current structure of online communication. Take either Reddit or Stack Exchange as examples. They build a platform, and users contribute their time, thought, energy, and knowledge to build a community on that platform. Those companies can then gatekeep and restrict access to all that the community built, when all they did is provide th…

A decentralized system will never work because 99% of users do not care at all; the centralized systems are easier to sign up for and use. It's been demonstrated over and over and over again.

Even if the underlying tech is decentralized, the community will settle around one or a few big instances (for example, Gmail and GitHub) which often end up having significant control over the trajectory of the entire ecosystem. If you run your own email server and you get put onto Google's spam list - you're fucked.

Re: June 2023 Data Dump is missing

#34

Post by endisneigh » Fri, Jun 09, 2023, 2:36 PM UTC

josephcsible wrote: post #31

endisneigh wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What we need is a legal way for companies to keep the data open, but also require OpenAI and friends to pay them for it. inherently not possible as then it would not be "open" to begin with.

There are ways to require payment for some uses of things that are legitimately open. As an example, consider the practice of selling exceptions to the GPL, as is done for Qt.

> As an example, consider the practice of selling exceptions to the GPL, as is done for Qt.

There are people who do not consider that "open".

See the whole debacle about what exactly constitutes "open source"

Re: June 2023 Data Dump is missing

#35

Post by marginalia_nu » Fri, Jun 09, 2023, 2:36 PM UTC

bagasme wrote: post #11

I guess this is a defensive move against being inadvertently used for ChatGPT model.

Cat's of out of the bag already with that one.

Re: June 2023 Data Dump is missing

#36

Post by expertentipp » Fri, Jun 09, 2023, 2:37 PM UTC

Everyone wants to be "smart" by web scraping, harvesting data, building models. No one bothers to build and sustain platforms where quality content can be crowd sourced. Parasitic arrangement is slowly starting a new era of the internet. Question how long until existing data dumps will become outdated and fall into irrelevance.

Re: June 2023 Data Dump is missing

#37

Post by josephcsible » Fri, Jun 09, 2023, 2:37 PM UTC

endisneigh wrote: post #34

josephcsible wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are ways to require payment for some uses of things that are legitimately open. As an example, consider the practice of selling exceptions to the GPL, as is done for Qt.

> As an example, consider the practice of selling exceptions to the GPL, as is done for Qt. There are people who do not consider that "open". See the whole debacle about what exactly constitutes "open source"

> There are people who do not consider that "open".

Who? Even Richard Stallman is okay with what they do: https://www.fsf.org/blogs/rms/selling-exceptions

Re: June 2023 Data Dump is missing

#38

Post by jmyeet » Fri, Jun 09, 2023, 2:38 PM UTC

This data dump was part of the compact between users (whoc reated the content) and the platform (who host it). The data dump was insurance against the company going the CDDB/Gracenote, Experts Exchange or Quora route and either paywalling or even just gating that content. We don't need a repeat of that.

If the data dump is gone, that compact is broken and honestly it's time to stop contributing to SO.

Re: June 2023 Data Dump is missing

#39

Post by urbandw311er » Fri, Jun 09, 2023, 2:41 PM UTC

jefftk wrote: post #13

endisneigh wrote: post #10

Not surprising - why would any content driven business want all of their stuff to be vacuumed up for free?

A lot of people were only willing to contribute to StackOverflow because of the CC licensing, trusting the knowledge wouldn't be locked up. As a business that depends on vast amounts of volunteer effort they need to balance providing a site where people are willing to contribute against making as much money as they can.

I wonder how many of those contributors, if re-consulted, would sign up to having their contributions used to train a for-profit LLM though?

I certainly didn’t sweat it out helping people on SO to pay for Sam Altman’s fucking swimming pool.

Re: June 2023 Data Dump is missing

#40

Post by tedivm » Fri, Jun 09, 2023, 2:41 PM UTC

the_pwner224 wrote: post #33

lumb63 wrote: post #16

This, along with recent Reddit goings-on has made me realize a major risk with the current structure of online communication. Take either Reddit or Stack Exchange as examples. They build a platform, and users contribute their time, thought, energy, and knowledge to build a community on that platform. Those companies can then gatekeep and restrict access to all that the community built, when all they did is provide th…

A decentralized system will never work because 99% of users do not care at all; the centralized systems are easier to sign up for and use. It's been demonstrated over and over and over again. Even if the underlying tech is decentralized, the community will settle around one or a few big instances (for example, Gmail and GitHub) which often end up having significant control over the trajectory of the entire ecosystem.…

>If you run your own email server and you get put onto Google's spam list - you're fucked.

It's even worse than that- I ran my own email server, and for some reason gmail delayed any emails from their system to outside of their system. That meant that people would send me an email but I wouldn't get it for 20 minutes. These delays don't exist when using big email providers (it stopped being a problem when I switched to Fastmail, for example) but if you're running a small server Google makes it a nightmare.