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Covid-19 vaccination-related myocarditis: A Korean nationwide study

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Re: Covid-19 vaccination-related myocarditis: A Korean nationwide study

#31

Post by [deleted] »

the_third_wave wrote: post #28
worrycue wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See ... At the beginning it was "don't hog masks" because there was a shortage, it's effectiveness vs COVID was unknown, and healthcare workers needed them to do their job - it would be a problem if Nurse Nancy breathed additional germs onto Little Timmy who is already weaken because he is sick. Later it's confirm that masks are effective vs COVID and the shortage has ceased so you should definitely wear them. But to…

> Later it's confirm that masks are effective vs COVID This has never been proven in any real sense, certainly not enough to justify mandatory masking. Now that the smoke is starting to clear a bit it is becoming clear that "There is not enough evidence to suggest medical-grade face masks protect vulnerable people from Covid" [1] and that "There is just no evidence that they — masks — make any difference ... There’s…

[deleted]

Re: Covid-19 vaccination-related myocarditis: A Korean nationwide study

#32

Post by tpoacher »

amanaplanacanal wrote: post #3

I skimmed through the study, but didn't read the whole thing. It appears that they called it vaccine related if it happened within 42 days of being vaccinated. What would the normal incidence be for unvaccinated people in a typical 42 day period? And what is the incidence for people who get infected with covid? Without those to compare with its hard to know what to think about these numbers.

I don't have numbers at hand at the moment, but the expectation is that its background rate is effectively zero in the absence of viral illness (COVID or otherwise), and presumably VRM is still lower compared to COVID-induced cardiac events.

However, the latter point doesn't make this finding trivial; there was considerable debate during the pandemic, whether people who had recently contracted COVID (and thus had natural immunity already) should have the vaccine as scheduled anyway, on account of it "being harmless", with early evidence of VRM dismissed as conspiracy theories and fearmongering. I recall many people who declined the vaccine on that premise and were still labelled "antivaxxers" on that basis (which I thought was rather sad at the time).

Furthermore, in many countries this policy was further enforced via "vaccine passports", meaning people with natural immunity still had to vaccinate regardless, in order to be able to go outside and conduct their business as normal, effectively putting people at unnecessary risk purely for the sake of administrative convenience.

Therefore this is a clinically significant finding in my view. Not sure why the article got flagged so quickly on HN...

Re: Covid-19 vaccination-related myocarditis: A Korean nationwide study

#33

Post by worrycue »

the_third_wave wrote: post #28
worrycue wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See ... At the beginning it was "don't hog masks" because there was a shortage, it's effectiveness vs COVID was unknown, and healthcare workers needed them to do their job - it would be a problem if Nurse Nancy breathed additional germs onto Little Timmy who is already weaken because he is sick. Later it's confirm that masks are effective vs COVID and the shortage has ceased so you should definitely wear them. But to…

> Later it's confirm that masks are effective vs COVID This has never been proven in any real sense, certainly not enough to justify mandatory masking. Now that the smoke is starting to clear a bit it is becoming clear that "There is not enough evidence to suggest medical-grade face masks protect vulnerable people from Covid" [1] and that "There is just no evidence that they — masks — make any difference ... There’s…

It's fact that masks help prevent the transmission of diseases that spread from the nose and mouth (and to my knowledge COVID is one of those) - that's why healthcare workers wear them; they have worn them for decades.

> certainly not enough to justify mandatory masking

This is the part that I don't get. People like you act like wearing a breathable fabric over your nose and mouth is some kind of huge sacrifice. Healthcare workers wear them everyday. The Japanese wear them whenever they are out and are sick with the flu/cold - some Japanese women even just wear them because they were too lazy to put on makeup that day. It's such a dumb thing to kick up a fuss over.

Re: Covid-19 vaccination-related myocarditis: A Korean nationwide study

#34

Post by tpoacher »

hayst4ck wrote: post #12

1.08 in 100,000 cases of vaccine related myocarditis (VRM), 2.16 deaths per 1,000,000. Hard to take much meaning away from that without understanding the risk posed by not vaccinating. If vaccines can prevent long COVID or "post viral syndrome," that's another potential cost benefit analysis. (which would make sense from a laymen perspective, killing k random cells seems bad, but killing N random cells seems strictly…

This is true, but misses an important exception: people who received vaccines despite demonstrating natural immunity at the time of vaccination.

Indeed I'd be interested to know of those episodes of VRM, how many of them had recent COVID, and whether these individuals had worse outcomes. I suspect you'd find these individuals were put at increased risk, for no clear increase in benefit.

Re: Covid-19 vaccination-related myocarditis: A Korean nationwide study

#35

Post by gfodor »

worrycue wrote: post #24
generalizations wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> see the usage of masks The modern public doesn't have patience for lies. The messaging around the masks was explicitly untruthful, as we now know. Once the public picked up on that, the CDC etc. lost the benefit of the doubt, and that got us to where we are now. What you're referencing is the effect, not the cause.

See ... At the beginning it was "don't hog masks" because there was a shortage, it's effectiveness vs COVID was unknown, and healthcare workers needed them to do their job - it would be a problem if Nurse Nancy breathed additional germs onto Little Timmy who is already weaken because he is sick. Later it's confirm that masks are effective vs COVID and the shortage has ceased so you should definitely wear them. But to…

No, they didn't just say that, that was the problem. They said that there was no evidence to support the idea that masks were effective against COVID-19. This is the usual weasel word approach of saying "there is no evidence" to support something to lead people to thinking there is counterevidence, which there wasn't. Once they started lying to people this way, it was over.

The proper messaging was: "we need to keep the mask supply up for medical workers if it turns out masks are effective in helping reduce their exposure. we don't know yet if masks are effective, they might be, and we are researching this right now as fast as we can. in the meantime, it seems prudent to assume they may help, and we ask the public to avoid buying masks for the time being while we increase the supply so our medical workers can have them."

Re: Covid-19 vaccination-related myocarditis: A Korean nationwide study

#36

Post by the_third_wave »

worrycue wrote: post #33
the_third_wave wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Later it's confirm that masks are effective vs COVID This has never been proven in any real sense, certainly not enough to justify mandatory masking. Now that the smoke is starting to clear a bit it is becoming clear that "There is not enough evidence to suggest medical-grade face masks protect vulnerable people from Covid" [1] and that "There is just no evidence that they — masks — make any difference ... There’s…

It's fact that masks help prevent the transmission of diseases that spread from the nose and mouth (and to my knowledge COVID is one of those) - that's why healthcare workers wear them; they have worn them for decades. > certainly not enough to justify mandatory masking This is the part that I don't get. People like you act like wearing a breathable fabric over your nose and mouth is some kind of huge sacrifice. Heal…

> People like you act like wearing a breathable fabric over your nose and mouth is some kind of huge sacrifice

Well, yes, it is, especially when it is a symbolic gesture.

> Healthcare workers wear them everyday

And? Construction workers wear helmets every day, welders wear goggles, farmers wear rubber boots, blacksmiths wear leather aprons. The fact that some professions come with their own protective clothing and accessories does not mean those things should be forced upon the populace unless there is a very good reason to do so.

> It's such a dumb thing to kick up a fuss over.

If you are fine with being told what to do without justification, fine, that is your right in a free society. I am not fine with being told what to do without justification which is my right in a free society. I do not claim you should not wear a mask if you want to do so, by all means wear one. Just don't expect me to do so without a clear cause.

Re: Covid-19 vaccination-related myocarditis: A Korean nationwide study

#37

Post by gfodor »

zug_zug wrote: post #14
gfodor wrote: post #11

[flagged]

"Some people are dead" sounds bad, but if you think about it some "people are dead" from lack of vaccine mandates too. So you really have to do the math, and the math is actually pretty clear on the whole. Then you can get more sophisticated and break it down by age group.

Yes like I said, we won't reckon with it, we'll continue to argue about if more people were killed than not killed by the mandates.

Re: Covid-19 vaccination-related myocarditis: A Korean nationwide study

#39

Post by gfodor »

drewcon wrote: post #13
gfodor wrote: post #11

[flagged]

Some people are dead because of anything. Alone that is an entirely unuseful realization. We need adjusted hazard ratios to make rational comparisons.

It's absolutely a useful realization since there were many things we could have and should have done, that would have been cost-free, if only people were a little more willing to admit that the vaccines did confer meaningful rates of harm.

Re: Covid-19 vaccination-related myocarditis: A Korean nationwide study

#40

Post by dubcee349 »

VagueMag wrote: post #30
zug_zug wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Some people are dead" sounds bad, but if you think about it some "people are dead" from lack of vaccine mandates too. So you really have to do the math, and the math is actually pretty clear on the whole. Then you can get more sophisticated and break it down by age group.

Once you break it down by age group, you find that the vast majority of people at significant risk from COVID voluntarily took vaccines shortly after they became available, so mandates could have had little effect in that cohort. Meanwhile, the mandates have lasted the longest on college campuses, where the risk calculus tilts most strongly against vaccination for COVID. So even if we're going to engage in a kind of…

I am struggling to see how the risk calculus tilts strongly against vaccination for college campuses. What are you saying?

College campuses have staff and students of all ages. They should be a safe place for people even that are unable to get vaccinated due to medical issues. The risk of myocarditis is higher with a COVID infection than the vaccine.

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