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Privacy: One of the Most Fundamental Human Rights, yet Constantly Under Threat

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Re: Privacy: One of the Most Fundamental Human Rights, yet Constantly Under Threat

#31

Post by endisneigh »

privacy is important but the article is strange because all of the things described can be opted-out of. in the case of Telly you are explicitly trading off privacy in order to receive a free product. don't consume if you don't agree.

there are certain situations in which you might be OK with the privacy implication. I, for example, would be OK with receiving a free car ride if I had to watch an advertisement while traveling in the vehicle.

a better example would be something like being fingerprinted at the airport. Where it is not strictly necessary in order to accomplish the goal of security. In general I would say Big Government is more concerning than Big Tech. Is it unfortunate that Meta and Google track you across the internet? Sure, but it's ultimately not necessary for your participation in society, unlike say being tracked in order to get a state identification card, and thus do basic things like get a bank account.

Re: Privacy: One of the Most Fundamental Human Rights, yet Constantly Under Threat

#32

Post by coremoff »

sp332 wrote: post #26
coremoff wrote: post #13

I disagree that it's a fundamental right. Over most of history privacy has been rare for most people, with the provisio that if you really wanted a private conversation you could have one in the middle of an open field in daylight with a reasonable expectation that your conversation would not be compromised. These days there can be no such expectation, and we need to separate out discussion of day-to-day privacy from…

It's talking about freedom from massive surveillance networks and unaccountable data collectors who use our data against us. Those didn't exist for most of human history. It's not just about neighborhood gossip.

I agree, however the article conflates mass surveillance and personal privacy, and I felt it worth highlighting the distinction.

Re: Privacy: One of the Most Fundamental Human Rights, yet Constantly Under Threat

#33

Post by robertlagrant »

BaseballPhysics wrote: post #30
edgyquant wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is. You can’t just argue for something you want as it being a human right when it’s something most people aren’t that concerns with. It makes people not take you or what you’re arguing seriously

Except people absolutely are concerned with privacy, if you ask the questions the right way. The problem is that surveillance capitalism shares a lot of properties with pollution: the effects are typically hidden or ephemeral; the cost to individuals is low while the cost to society is high; and people have largely become complacent if not resigned to the status quo. And so a) most people don't understand the sheer e…

The same is true of state surveillance, except the state has the right to do way more directly bad things to you.

Re: Privacy: One of the Most Fundamental Human Rights, yet Constantly Under Threat

#34

Post by BaseballPhysics »

robertlagrant wrote: post #33
BaseballPhysics wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except people absolutely are concerned with privacy, if you ask the questions the right way. The problem is that surveillance capitalism shares a lot of properties with pollution: the effects are typically hidden or ephemeral; the cost to individuals is low while the cost to society is high; and people have largely become complacent if not resigned to the status quo. And so a) most people don't understand the sheer e…

The same is true of state surveillance, except the state has the right to do way more directly bad things to you.

Sure. Both are bad. But it's not the state that's created massive, unaccountable, opaque, private marketplaces that incentivize these behaviours.

Re: Privacy: One of the Most Fundamental Human Rights, yet Constantly Under Threat

#35

Post by jruohonen »

coremoff wrote: post #13

I disagree that it's a fundamental right. Over most of history privacy has been rare for most people, with the provisio that if you really wanted a private conversation you could have one in the middle of an open field in daylight with a reasonable expectation that your conversation would not be compromised. These days there can be no such expectation, and we need to separate out discussion of day-to-day privacy from…

> I disagree that it's a fundamental right.

https://www.un.org/en/about-us/universal-declaration-of-huma...

Re: Privacy: One of the Most Fundamental Human Rights, yet Constantly Under Threat

#37

Post by coremoff »

BaseballPhysics wrote: post #27
coremoff wrote: post #13

I disagree that it's a fundamental right. Over most of history privacy has been rare for most people, with the provisio that if you really wanted a private conversation you could have one in the middle of an open field in daylight with a reasonable expectation that your conversation would not be compromised. These days there can be no such expectation, and we need to separate out discussion of day-to-day privacy from…

Privacy and private property rights are deeply intertwined (it is, for example, what makes it unlawful for me to walk into your house uninvited and install a hidden camera, or to walk up to your house and stare through your bedroom window while you make love to your partner). Would you argue that, because historically a right to own and control access to private property has "been rare for most people", we shouldn't…

I think here you're conflating phsyical security (am I safe in my home) with privacy (am I unobserved).

Yes, I would argue that controlling information access to property should not be considered a fundamental right - in that it's practically un-enforceable for privacy purposes already; I do think there should be an expectation that you can walk around your property without fear of bumping into some stranger though.

Clearly it's not as cut and dried as that, as physical security is required to ensure that you can have information privacy too, but I think it's important to maintain the distinction.

Re: Privacy: One of the Most Fundamental Human Rights, yet Constantly Under Threat

#38

Post by BaseballPhysics »

endisneigh wrote: post #31

privacy is important but the article is strange because all of the things described can be opted-out of. in the case of Telly you are explicitly trading off privacy in order to receive a free product. don't consume if you don't agree. there are certain situations in which you might be OK with the privacy implication. I, for example, would be OK with receiving a free car ride if I had to watch an advertisement while t…

> Is it unfortunate that Meta and Google track you across the internet? Sure, but it's ultimately not necessary for your participation in society

I'm honestly astonished by this claim.

For many the products provided by Meta and Google--Facebook, Whatsapp, Gmail, WeChat, etc--are deeply important to their lives. These tools are the way people connect and communicate with friends and families, conduct business, and in general navigate the world.

It is becoming damn near impossible to avoid their prying eyes. And I know. I've tried.

So, I'm sorry, no, I completely disagree with your claim.

Is "Big Government" surveillance a concern? Yes. Absolutely.

But private company surveillance is every bit as concerning, every bit as difficult to avoid, and far harder to control (after all, I don't get to elect who runs Facebook).

Re: Privacy: One of the Most Fundamental Human Rights, yet Constantly Under Threat

#39

Post by Svarto »

endisneigh wrote: post #31

privacy is important but the article is strange because all of the things described can be opted-out of. in the case of Telly you are explicitly trading off privacy in order to receive a free product. don't consume if you don't agree. there are certain situations in which you might be OK with the privacy implication. I, for example, would be OK with receiving a free car ride if I had to watch an advertisement while t…

I would argue that access and utilization of the internet is needed to participate in society. That is to say if we define "participate in society" beyond being alive and merely existing in close proximity to your neighbours, the internet is inescapable if you want to pay bills, stay up to date what is happening in your neighbourhood or have any chance of a decent living (e.g. a paying job).

Re: Privacy: One of the Most Fundamental Human Rights, yet Constantly Under Threat

#40

Post by spacebanana7 »

diegoholiveira wrote: post #15

> Our mission is clear - we aim to unravel the magic of FOSS, Linux, and self-hosting to individuals seeking a break from the shackles of Big Tech. IMO, it's not only Big Tech that poses a threat on privacy and freedom. Big Governments are other threat that, IMO, it's much harder to fight against it.

Any data collected by big tech can be accessed by governments and governments will manage that data using big tech products so there's not that much distinction between the two.
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