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Raspberry Pi/PlatformIO conflict blocks support for Pico-Arduino toolchain

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Re: Raspberry Pi/PlatformIO conflict blocks support for Pico-Arduino toolchain

#31
post #22

Comment from Eben Upton of the Raspberry Pi foundation: > We received a proposal from PlatformIO Labs in October 2022. While we absolutely empathise with the challenges of funding open-source projects, we were unable to justify paying the very substantial recurring fees involved. We indicated that we would not be proceeding, and have subsequently made some investments elsewhere What am I missing here? Is PlatformIO r…

I don’t know about the quality of this PR, it looks good at first glance. But sometimes “free” things have significant costs. For example, a project offering a RPi integration will probably have to maintain it and further develop it, or face significant pressure to do so. And if they don’t see that it will be worth it, maybe it won’t. They know their customers and business better than we do. I have seen this plenty o…

> For example, a project offering a RPi integration will probably have to maintain it and further develop it, or face significant pressure to do so. And if they don’t see that it will be worth it, maybe it won’t. They know their customers and business better than we do.

This is genetically true, but it should be noted that PlatformIO already has integrated the RaspberryPi platform and maintains code for it: For example, a project offering a RPi integration will probably have to maintain it and further develop it, or face significant pressure to do so. And if they don’t see that it will be worth it, maybe it won’t. They know their customers and business better than we do.

https://registry.platformio.org/platforms/platformio/raspber...

This PR appears to be a specific API improvement that a lot of people in the community have been using and maintaining.

In parallel, PlatformIO appears to have tried to get recurring fees from RaspberryPi after they implemented support for it. The Raspberry Pi foundation declined to pay, and now PlatformIO is refusing to accept these contributions from the open source community, citing the way Raspberry Pi has declined to pay their substantial recurring fees.

I get that it’s a commercial product and they’re not obligated to accept anything they don’t want to. However, rolling out support for a platform and then refusing community engagement with quality PRs on the basis that they couldn’t extract recurring fees from the vendor is rather uncool.

Just as it’s not fair to expect this company to maintain PRs forever, it’s not fair for this company to expect the Raspberry Pi foundation to enter into recurring fee payments forever so this company can add a community-generated feature to their commercial product.

> it will cost significant resources to dedicate team members to porting the work, further developing it until it meets quality standards

I understand what you’re saying, but that doesn’t not appear to be the case here. This appears to be a popular and well-tested form in use and in ongoing development by an active community. It’s also for a platform that PlatformIO already supports. They’re saying they don’t want to work with the community on this because the vendor (who is unrelated to this entire debacle) won’t enter into a contract to pay them recurring fees for it.

Re: Raspberry Pi/PlatformIO conflict blocks support for Pico-Arduino toolchain

#32

Any platformIO alternatives?

The Official Raspberry Pi Pico Windows install will give you a working VSCode build system with the official SDK. It's not Arduino libraries, but is easy to get going and building code.

https://github.com/raspberrypi/pico-setup-windows/releases

Re: Raspberry Pi/PlatformIO conflict blocks support for Pico-Arduino toolchain

#33
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t know about the quality of this PR, it looks good at first glance. But sometimes “free” things have significant costs. For example, a project offering a RPi integration will probably have to maintain it and further develop it, or face significant pressure to do so. And if they don’t see that it will be worth it, maybe it won’t. They know their customers and business better than we do. I have seen this plenty o…

> For example, a project offering a RPi integration will probably have to maintain it and further develop it, or face significant pressure to do so. And if they don’t see that it will be worth it, maybe it won’t. They know their customers and business better than we do. This is genetically true, but it should be noted that PlatformIO already has integrated the RaspberryPi platform and maintains code for it: For examp…

It's possible they've made some blanket business decision like "we will not support any more third party integration code unless they finance it". It's a somewhat reasonable stance, overall. But some companies use PR speak as a facade and don't communicate these internal stances clearly to their stakeholders.

Re: Raspberry Pi/PlatformIO conflict blocks support for Pico-Arduino toolchain

#34

Comment from Eben Upton of the Raspberry Pi foundation: > We received a proposal from PlatformIO Labs in October 2022. While we absolutely empathise with the challenges of funding open-source projects, we were unable to justify paying the very substantial recurring fees involved. We indicated that we would not be proceeding, and have subsequently made some investments elsewhere What am I missing here? Is PlatformIO r…

Sorry for the late response, it was a night in Ukraine. A lot of negative comments here without a deep understating of the real issue.

Please read my detailed explanation in the original PR https://github.com/platformio/platform-raspberrypi/pull/36#i...

Re: Raspberry Pi/PlatformIO conflict blocks support for Pico-Arduino toolchain

#35

Comment from Eben Upton of the Raspberry Pi foundation: > We received a proposal from PlatformIO Labs in October 2022. While we absolutely empathise with the challenges of funding open-source projects, we were unable to justify paying the very substantial recurring fees involved. We indicated that we would not be proceeding, and have subsequently made some investments elsewhere What am I missing here? Is PlatformIO r…

Sorry for the late response, it was a night in Ukraine. A lot of negative comments here without a deep understating of the real issue. Please read my detailed explanation in the original PR https://github.com/platformio/platform-raspberrypi/pull/36#i...

I understand the challenge of funding open-source projects, but it seems like a bad idea to turn down a high-quality contribution because you cannot agree with RPi on a fee schedule.

As one of the comments on GitHub suggests, why not accept the PR and let the community maintain it? Otherwise it feels like this is not an open-source project -- just source-available.

Re: Raspberry Pi/PlatformIO conflict blocks support for Pico-Arduino toolchain

#36
post #8

Why is the title so deceptive? There is no conflict - PR is blocked because PlatformIO is trying to extort money from RPi and is not successful with it

I was trying to be even-handed. I'm generally of the opinion that PlatformIO should merge the PR on the condition that it be maintained by the community - which seems reasonable considering PIO is supposed to be an open-source project - but it's also a complicated situation involving a bunch of negotiations I'm not party to, so I wanted to avoid passing judgement.

Re: Raspberry Pi/PlatformIO conflict blocks support for Pico-Arduino toolchain

#37
A brief explainer I should really have submitted with the link:

- PlatformIO already has "official" support for the RasPi Pico board, with Arduino

- However almost everyone prefers and uses the "unofficial" earlephilhower/arduino-pico integration which adds a ton of features and is well documented

- A PR to add this integration to the PIO registry has been outstanding for over two years now

- In the last week or so the PlatformIO CEO has posted that they will not be merging the PR

- My understanding of their reasoning is that RasPi needs to pay PIO to support the branch going forward? The language is rather vague with a lot of talk about "communities" and "values" so I could be wrong about this, please don't sue me

- RasPi's response is basically "LOL no" since they are all-in on their horrible CMake toolchain and don't care about PIO

Re: Raspberry Pi/PlatformIO conflict blocks support for Pico-Arduino toolchain

#38

The comments on the pull request seem to be missing some context, not yet captured by the other HN comments on this story. If PlatformIO is asking for payment, just what is that payment intended for? In particular, it appears that PlatformIO already notionally supports the Raspberry Pi PICO ( https://registry.platformio.org/platforms/platformio/raspber... ) platform. Their site even marks it as one of the "top 10" by…

PlatformIO seems to be seeking a support and sponsorship agreement with Raspberry Pi.

The integration of the community-supported core Arduino-Pico that's enabled by this PR would indeed be a significant upgrade to the existing core. It seems that this core now has broad community support with nearly 100 contributors, and the burden of continuing integration after merging this PR would be minimal.

PlatformIO appears to be using the support burden as a shield for defending their shady tactics of withholding approval (and indeed completely ghosting the entire community after repeated attempts for further comment on the PR for over half a year) of this highly wished for community-derived PR while they quietly attempted to woo Raspberry Pi Trading into a support contract last year.

The situation is now complicated by the fact that representatives of Raspberry Pi (perhaps Eben Upton himself) privately contacted the maintainer of this PR recently attempting to urge that it get merged. This feels like a surreptitious attempt to benefit from PlatformIO's work while avoiding the support agreement that similar vendors such as Espressif and SiFive appear to have entered into with PlatformIO.

Edit: This based on the summary comment here - https://github.com/platformio/platform-raspberrypi/pull/36#i...

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