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Where have all the hackers gone?

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31–40 of 351 posts

Re: Where have all the hackers gone?

#31
Lovely article -- very original.

I'll add some anecdata, to give more context on why "atmosphere at all costs" might be en vogue.

- Most software engineering is CRUD

- Almost all 3rd generation, higher level languages can achieve CRUD (e.g. Javascript, C#, Java, Python, Ruby, PHP, Python, Perl -- even Bash)

- Most engineers will not have to dig around in the internals of a language to be able to do their jobs (e.g. that you can fine-tune and pick your own garbage collector (or even disable it completely), depending on the domain in Java (such as low-latency environments); whereas in .NET, you cannot really tune, swap out, or turn off the GC completely)

- Without needing to know the internals of a language, all the aforementioned languages are largely interchangeable (again, for CRUD -- and based on taste)

This is why you may commonly see people recommending that even if you don't know a language, you should be able to pick up whatever language a potential engagement requires (see: "a senior should be able to pick up frameworks and languages within a week or two"). I've always disliked this way of seeing the world. It rubs me in a certain grating way: that most work is CRUD, so you should optimize your career for being an interchangeable COG.

In my experience, if you take the time to learn a single language or ecosystem thoroughly, your chances of finding work for that specific ecosystem greatly increase -- versus the "generalist." Likewise, you'll be able to tell when it's the tool that's messing up, or yourself. Further, you'll be able to find more interesting, "deeper" work to handle -- rather than just building another CRUD web app. And lastly, life is too short to work with stuff you don't like.

For example, I love the .NET ecosystem. If I want to build something that isn't in the HPC space, I'll reach for it first. I know Java, but I don't like Java -- and I do not ever want to work with it. My ability to land .NET work is much easier, because I know the ecosystem -- not just how to program in an OOP language.

Or how about databases? I love Postgres. If I want a great OLTP DB, without any fuss, I'll reach for it first. I know MySQL/Mongo/SQL Server (to be fair, this one is also really good)/etc., but I don't like most of them. My ability to land work that utilizes Postgres is much easier, because I've taken the time to thoroughly understand it.

Or in other words, most people in the game are optimizing for commerce: how much money they make.

The hackers? They're in lower-level, systems programming languages; they're in compiler and language design; they're in low-latency or kernel programming; they're in stuff that isn't directly related to making money. Part of the reason I'm learning C++ is because the work there is more interesting (database engineering is very fun, but you need C++ or C in some cases) -- and the people more passionate. But also, because the gravy train is starting to dry up in CRUD -- anyone who can program can do it.

Re: Where have all the hackers gone?

#33

Sorry if this is off-topic but I often see in HN (either in articles posted here, or in the comments) lack of empathy. He talks about a "friend" and then proceeds to say things like "To be honest, I suspect he didn't know or think much about them" or "This was not a fruitful conversation". How is that supposed friend, who might very well be aware of this person's blog, going to feel after reading this? Is it a cultur…

It could be an aspect of undiagnosed or unmedicated ADHD. ADHA applies more broadly than just states of focus and includes social conditions that when the ADHD is advanced can mimic behaviors commonly thought of autistic. One of those impaired social behaviors can include empathy development. Please note this does not apply to most cases of ADHD and seems to apply in cases that are more pronounced.

One key indicator of whether impaired empathy is the result of ADHD is that everything tends to be communicated as either starting from or directly referring to the person forming the communication almost as if narcissistic, but not necessarily with a selfishness intent.

Re: Where have all the hackers gone?

#34

Lovely article -- very original. I'll add some anecdata, to give more context on why "atmosphere at all costs" might be en vogue. - Most software engineering is CRUD - Almost all 3rd generation, higher level languages can achieve CRUD (e.g. Javascript, C#, Java, Python, Ruby, PHP, Python, Perl -- even Bash) - Most engineers will not have to dig around in the internals of a language to be able to do their jobs (e.g. t…

Haha, Im on the similar boat

I love .NET ecosystem but it sucks that it lacks of fancy jobs that you mentioned. If you want to do compilers with C# then it feels like you have to work for C# Compiler / Roslyn Team(s)

For cool jobs there is shitton of CPP which I do think is huge mess and I hope that Rust will steal CPPs market share because my experiences with it were way way more pleasant

Re: Where have all the hackers gone?

#35
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think I'd personally be offended by those bits. People have different focuses! Sometimes conversations aren't fruitful! I'm ok with that. But I do think there's a lack of empathy displayed in his strong value judgments. His "here are the different things people think about" breakdown is interesting. But there's a flavor of "and these specific people are bad and wrong" here that I don't like. I think he should…

Well said. The only issue I have is the lack of empathy. Friends don’t have to agree on everything. Calling your friend a jerk because their interests don’t align with yours is… odd?

OP didn't call his friend a jerk though. He said the conversation wasn't fruitful. There was a bit of an heir of "Oh, you don't know about GC?" but I think people are reading too much into that line.

Re: Where have all the hackers gone?

#36
I like the spirit of the soil/surface/atmosphere split but I think it’s a bit misleading to frame it as a way to talk about ‘languages’.

It feels like those things can be better framed as ‘runtime/tooling’, ‘language/libraries’ and ‘ecosystem’.

And under that taxonomy it isn’t wrong for people who say they like a ‘language’ to not be talking about the runtime or the tooling.

Like, take JavaScript (the good parts at least): I like that language! And I separate that out mentally from the fact that I hate the browser runtime, and I don’t have much love for the node ecosystem. I have complicated feelings about working in javascript as a result. But I still consider myself an admirer of the core good ideas at the heart of the JavaScript language.

The surface matters a lot. You have to live there.

Re: Where have all the hackers gone?

#37

Sorry if this is off-topic but I often see in HN (either in articles posted here, or in the comments) lack of empathy. He talks about a "friend" and then proceeds to say things like "To be honest, I suspect he didn't know or think much about them" or "This was not a fruitful conversation". How is that supposed friend, who might very well be aware of this person's blog, going to feel after reading this? Is it a cultur…

It could be an aspect of undiagnosed or unmedicated ADHD. ADHA applies more broadly than just states of focus and includes social conditions that when the ADHD is advanced can mimic behaviors commonly thought of autistic. One of those impaired social behaviors can include empathy development. Please note this does not apply to most cases of ADHD and seems to apply in cases that are more pronounced. One key indicator…

[Engineer/HN stereotype implies un-diagnosed ADHD] has become an engineer/HN stereotype.

I personally think people can make empathy mistakes without having a permanent neurological disorder.

Re: Where have all the hackers gone?

#38

Sorry if this is off-topic but I often see in HN (either in articles posted here, or in the comments) lack of empathy. He talks about a "friend" and then proceeds to say things like "To be honest, I suspect he didn't know or think much about them" or "This was not a fruitful conversation". How is that supposed friend, who might very well be aware of this person's blog, going to feel after reading this? Is it a cultur…

You can absolutely have friends that you have unfruitful conversations with. The idea that every interaction needs to be positive to constitute friendship is extremely unhealthy and sterilizing.

you can have such conversations with anyone, they are not a friend. friendship implies a certain emotional investment, which implies a certain bias

Re: Where have all the hackers gone?

#39

Making things easy is the problem. It's been long known in secret societies, that guarding entry through a solvable but hard entry barrier makes it more rewarding for those who do make it through and the ones already inside. In programming, we have tried to make everything easy: JavaScript everywhere. Electron everywhere. Slow code everywhere. No need to think about memory of cpu cycles at all. The result is piles of…

In some ways things are a lot harder. In the early 90s I was able to borrow Turbo C from my brother. He gave me a pointer to video memory and I could use math to draw stuff. I was making stuff in a few minutes.

Re: Where have all the hackers gone?

#40
post #29

Just to set the context: I like Golang as a language, but I think writing a program that's more than ~10k lines of code in Golang is a mistake (honestly, the limit is probably a lot lower), and I also don't think they should've added generics, just leave the language as useful as it is. Anyway, I think the author missed the point a bit with his friends argument about "Go developers knew that all you need is a for loo…

> I think writing a program that's more than ~10k lines of code in Golang is a mistake

isn't Kubernetes mostly Go? Just sounds like an arbitrary limit. I say that when I try to limit shell scripts to a single-scroll in editor.

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