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Backbone vs Ember

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Re: Backbone vs Ember

#31

Post by scelerat »

andyl wrote: post #21

Over the past few weeks I've seen a number of Ember evangelists making claims about BB as 'hard to use' or 'suitable for small apps'. I don't agree. The fact is that BB is stable and has loads of documentation and live apps. Ember not so much.

I love that BB is such a small library. The concise docs at documentcloud plus the source code was all the reference as I needed, even for my first framework-oriented browser app.

I ought to connect with the community more, but so far getting up and running with it (and building a moderately complex app) has been a breeze, as far as Backbone is concerned.

Re: Backbone vs Ember

#33

Post by skilesare »

I'll add my voice to those that would like some much better documentation from ember.js. I'm starting to finds some stuff on stack overflow but it has taken a while to find. A few things that would help tremendously when people get started:

-Examples of the built in controls(tab,select,textfield,textarea). There are only like 6 of them but when you find out they exist and are not documented they feel like 600. The sroutcore history amplifies this assumption.

-The fact that sub views(ie textfield) don't bubble but are really easy to implement by extending TextField. See: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/8646238/handling-blur-on-... (PS. Why is this? It seem silly that I can't do {{view Ember.textField change="parentview.change"}} in my views.)

Re: Backbone vs Ember

#35

Post by bcrescimanno »

learc83 wrote: post #22
bcrescimanno wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are some pretty legitimate concerns with Ember and large data sets right now as the treatment of those datasets tends to be fairly naive and linear. There are several people, myself included, who are working on ways to address that problem--but modifying a large collection, at the moment, can trigger the entire collection to re-render which can be extremely expensive. FWIW, I'm not an expert on Ember.js or Back…

>modifying a large collection, at the moment, can trigger the entire collection to re-render which can be extremely expensive. How large is large enough to cause problems?

It really depends on your environment and the complexity of the rendering tied to your collection. For example, on a fast desktop-class system with a collection that renders one element with 1 property, you can probably have hundreds (or maybe even thousands) of items in the collection before you start to notice slowdowns when the collections update. Working on lower-end and mobile platforms, those numbers change. Similarly, if you rendering is complex, it will take more time as well. All that said, there's really no "magic number"

There are definite workarounds such as setting up paging--but the simple approach of using Ember.js bindings to bind a collection to a template will fall to pieces as that collection grows.

Re: Backbone vs Ember

#36

Post by espeed »

dmvaldman wrote: post #15
jashkenas wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ... as the year progresses, hope to compare favorably > to Backbone's impressive list. I'm very much looking forward to seeing them. The more different takes on JS-heavy apps the better. I'm about to crash, but would you mind expanding on what you've written here -- "rewritten from the ground up", and so on -- in relation to earlier posts like this one: http://blog.sproutcore.com/sproutcore-amber-a-report-by-yehu..…

Can't we all just get along... I've been working with Backbone intensively since V0.1, and though I've very scarcely looked at ember, I've been following the heated discussions on both sides. Personally, I think it's damaging to both your publicizing efforts. Perhaps what would be more beneficial is a more complex hello world app than the todo list. One that expresses the flexibility of Backbone's minimalism, along w…

> I've been following the heated discussions on both sides. Personally, I think it's damaging to both your publicizing efforts.

Actually, it probably helps both publicizing efforts. As the Internet-wide debate becomes "Backbone vs Ember," it puts the focus on those two techs and leaves other competitors out of the conversation.

Re: Backbone vs Ember

#37

Post by borismus »

jashkenas wrote: post #5

Guh. A fun dive into politics, but I'm not such a big fan of Boris' conclusions, as you might imagine. > Backbone by itself is not sufficient for building complex web apps. That bit is particularly galling ... It's one thing to opine about stated philosophy, and another thing to really look at how the rubber hits the road. SproutCore/Ember (5 years worth of apps, major corporate backing): http://sproutcore.com/#appli…

(reposted from blog): I don't see how the claim that "Backbone by itself is not sufficient for building complex web apps" is controversial. There is a clear need to go beyond the functionality provided by Backbone, as evidenced by the popularity of great projects like Tim's Backbone boilerplate and layout-manager.

Re: Backbone vs Ember

#38

Post by alanh »

> In my experience writing Backbone apps, views are very primitive and tend to cause issues. There's no support for any sort of view nesting, which is totally critical for large applications with complex UIs. In contrast, Ember provides an easy way of nesting views inside one another.

I have run into this. It’s really frustrating, in Backbone.

Re: Backbone vs Ember

#39

Post by alanh »

phzbOx wrote: post #29
jashkenas wrote: post #5

Guh. A fun dive into politics, but I'm not such a big fan of Boris' conclusions, as you might imagine. > Backbone by itself is not sufficient for building complex web apps. That bit is particularly galling ... It's one thing to opine about stated philosophy, and another thing to really look at how the rubber hits the road. SproutCore/Ember (5 years worth of apps, major corporate backing): http://sproutcore.com/#appli…

> Backbone by itself is not sufficient for building complex web apps. What he meant was that for any complex web apps built on backbone.js, you have to build a layer on top of it or use additional plugins. You won't build complex applications as is . IMHO, I consider backbone.js more as a base framework which you need to enhance before starting your project. So, in a way, every complex backbone.js app is more of a ex…

Yes. A very good clarification, and I would tend to agree

Re: Backbone vs Ember

#40

Post by alanh »

ch0wn wrote: post #24
Ecio78 wrote: post #16

Boris, I dont know if it happens only to me, but your blog is badly rendered on my Chromium (Linux Mint): many many words are overlapped (like all the paragraph "I like..." under your photo). Everything seems fine in Firefox, I'll try with Chrome on Windows at work. Edit: Chrome on Windows is ok, maybe there's something wrong on my Linux installation

I have the same problem with Chrome on Ubuntu from time to time. Reloading the page usually fixes it. It's annoying, though.

Huh. That’s been a known issue for quite some time now. I think it’s triggered by this, maybe?

     -webkit-text-rendering: optimizeLegibility;
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