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The Two Cultures (1959) [pdf]

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Re: The Two Cultures (1959) [pdf]

#31
> 'Once or twice I have been provoked and have asked the company how many of them could describe the Second Law of Thermodynamics. The response was cold: it was also negative. Yet I was asking something which is about the scientific equivalent of "Have you read a work of Shakespare's?"'

It's right there in Yeats, which the author also references:

> "Turning and turning in the widening gyre / The falcon cannot hear the falconer / Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold /"

Carl Sagan's Pale Blue Dot image (14 February 1990) is rather deceptive when it comes to understanding the story of life on earth in the context of the fundamental laws of thermodynamics, but here it is:

https://www.planetary.org/worlds/pale-blue-dot

Let's say we took that planet and dropped it out to the orbit of Pluto, which we also now have some great imagery of. Pluto is indeed chemically active, it turns out, in the subzero real of nitrogen ices and so on. Hence a better picture would be a transit of Earth across the Sun from say, the perspective of Mars:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transit_of_Earth_from_Mars

> "No one has ever seen a transit of Earth from Mars, but the next transit will take place on November 10, 2084. The last such transit took place on May 11, 1984."

The only reason life developed on the 'pale blue dot' was that it was at a fairly optimal distance from our local star, which is pouring energy out into space at a ridiculous level relative to the amount captured by this tiny planet. That huge flood of energy is what allows life to swim upstream against the tide of entropy, aka the Second Law, by using that energy to create complex structures of only fleeting permanence, but eventually humans learned to use excess plant production to feed the literary geniuses who created the great works of imagination. Genetic information transfer was the imperfect mechanism (note all species go extinct over time) behind this story.

In literary-vs-science 'two-culture' terms, a return to sun-worship is a nice way of closing the gap. The Egyptians seem to have adopted the concept for ~150 human generations, maybe they were smarter than we are?

Re: The Two Cultures (1959) [pdf]

#32
post #27
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also picking on a particularly difficult area. The "second law of thermodynamics" is actually extremely subtle. In its original formulation it's basically a big mess talking about energy flows. In its simple/elegant/modern form, it relies on an understanding of this crazy thing called "entropy" which is measured like energy but isn't, and which gets pushed with an "intuitive" interpretation that is anything but…

It is not that hard to understand that a broken glass won't mend itself spontaneously

No, but understanding that fact is at most a naive and useless understanding the second law of thermodynamics. It's the numbers in there that make it a scientific "law". And a numeric understanding of entropy is totally bananas.

Re: The Two Cultures (1959) [pdf]

#33
post #27
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's also picking on a particularly difficult area. The "second law of thermodynamics" is actually extremely subtle. In its original formulation it's basically a big mess talking about energy flows. In its simple/elegant/modern form, it relies on an understanding of this crazy thing called "entropy" which is measured like energy but isn't, and which gets pushed with an "intuitive" interpretation that is anything but…

It is not that hard to understand that a broken glass won't mend itself spontaneously

Yes, but a broken glass has much less entropy than an intact glass at a slightly higher temperature.

Re: The Two Cultures (1959) [pdf]

#34
post #30
post #3

This is starting to trend in the opposite direction, however I find the problem is more along these lines: https://massivesci.com/articles/chaos-in-the-brickyard-comic...

1963? The progress hasn't stopped since then though the comics seem even more relevant today.

[deleted]

Re: The Two Cultures (1959) [pdf]

#35
I get confused who is complaining about who. It reminds me of the two Spiderman meme where each are pointing at each other [1].

Most recently, I was watching an interview with Iain McGilchrist. His thesis in "The Master and His Emissary" is that our society has veered too far towards the intellectual. According to his thesis, scientific concerns are dominating our decision making processes. The ills in society are caused by the exclusion of "right brain" or intuitive thinking in modern governance and in the general culture of modern society.

I don't really have an opinion on who is right or wrong. I can't really say if scientists lack sufficient knowledge about humanities subjects or visa versa. But it does feel like each side is pointing the finger at the other side.

It doesn't even matter what side you support, e.g. if you think McGilchrist is a crank or an apologist for a particular kind of reactionary element that is taking over populist rhetoric. There can be no movement towards a middle-ground when both sides insist that they are the ones being misunderstood and oppressed.

1. https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/spider-man-pointing-at-spider...

Re: The Two Cultures (1959) [pdf]

#36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That’s because studying the humanities is quite a bit different than studying a technical field. The humanities are broadly trying to answer “what does it mean to be a human, and how should we live?” Sure, physics provides the occasional relevant answer, but less directly. It discovers facts about nature, and sometimes those facts give the discussion more context.

>The humanities are broadly trying to answer “what does it mean to be a human, and how should we live?” That's quite condescending. Scientists must not know how to live, or what it means to be human, since they don't have an English degree. Look, the humanities is where people who say things like "I'm not good with numbers" go. That's it.

> Look, the humanities is where people who say things like "I'm not good with numbers" go. That's it.

When they say that, they don't mean it literally. It's like if they found themselves in a discussion about cleaning public toilets. They might say "Oh I'm not good with mops and liquid cleaning agents" or whatever to be polite, when what they really mean is more like "Oh I have people for that, I'm sorry to hear that you have to sell your time and labor for money, your grandparents should have been wealthier." but that would be rude and unproductively antagonistic.

Re: The Two Cultures (1959) [pdf]

#37

> Once or twice I have been provoked and have asked the company how many of them could describe the Second Law of Thermodynamics. The response was cold: it was also negative. Yet I was asking something which is the scientific equivalent of: Have you read a work of Shakespeare's? But that's not quite true, is it. In the one case, he's asking someone to explain a very specific thing (one particular physical law), and i…

I don't buy that. The Second Law of Thermodynamics is not only basic, but can be stated in a sentence. Being able to generally recall the plot of Romeo & Juliet (or any Shakespeare play) is objectively harder than being able to spit out that sentence. I'll make the bold claim that Second Law of Thermodynamics would be recalled by far more scientists than the plot of Coriolanus would be by MFAs. The worst thing we do…

>>> is objectively harder

I don't think it's objectively harder - at the very least, [citation needed]. It might be subjectively harder for you. But one is a random factoid, the other one is a story. Humans are, in general, exceedingly good at stories. Facts, we tend to focus on the areas we know. You and I might be good at physics facts, or software facts. Somebody else might be good at agriculture facts, or knitting facts, or what-have-you.

But stories are universal. They connect. It's how most of humanity learns and shares knowledge. (See e.g. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41467-017-02036-8)

There's a pretty good likelihood that stories are ultimately easier to remember for a larger number of people than facts.

>>> Then, as citizens, they make obvious mistakes about the relative costs and effects of things they advocate for

I'll note that you're possibly wrong about relative costs of learning, too. What matters isn't only what you learn (though teaching stats would sure be a good thing), but also a willingness to approach issues with a bit of humility, and not claiming something as absolute fact until it provably is.

Re: The Two Cultures (1959) [pdf]

#38
post #35

I get confused who is complaining about who. It reminds me of the two Spiderman meme where each are pointing at each other [1]. Most recently, I was watching an interview with Iain McGilchrist. His thesis in "The Master and His Emissary" is that our society has veered too far towards the intellectual. According to his thesis, scientific concerns are dominating our decision making processes. The ills in society are ca…

It would generally be fine if scientific concerns dominated decision making processes in most domains. The problem is that decision makers often decide based on their own preconceptions and biases, then justify those decisions after the fact with a thin veneer of cherry-picked "science". Then they use logical fallacies to demonize their opponents as "anti-science".

(This is a general comment about problematic decision making and is not a political attack on any individual person or party. I have observed similar patterns across the political spectrum.)

The one area where scientific concerns must never be allowed to dominate is in fundamental freedoms and human rights. Those cannot be analyzed scientifically in any productive way.

Re: The Two Cultures (1959) [pdf]

#39
I derive these comments from the introduction by Stefan Collini (a lit professor) in the Cambridge UP edition of "The Two Cultures". (https://www.amazon.com/Two-Cultures-Canto-Classics/dp/110760...)

Snow had a PhD in chemistry, but dropped out of science early on to write popular novels and to become a very successful bureaucrat. He had originally intended to call this lecture "The Rich and the Poor", because he was arguing about who was best qualified to govern society and solve the problems of the Third World.

The gist of the speech is that the traditional elites of society are not competent to govern because all they know about is the classics. He thinks only a scientific background can create a wise leader. If only a large enough percentage of the population would get a technical education, then society would become rational.

His position was extremely naive and never seriously accepted as he put it. The subsequent use of the term "two cultures" to mean a disjunction of the humanistic and scientific approaches to knowledge is not quite what he meant. He was railing against traditionalism and venting a deep animosity toward England's literary society.

A quote from William James:

Of all the insufficient authorities as to the total nature of reality, give me the "scientists" . . . Their interests are most incomplete and their professional conceit and bigotry immense. I know of no narrower sect or club, in spite of their excellent authority in the line of fact they have explored, and their splendid achievements there.

Re: The Two Cultures (1959) [pdf]

#40

> Once or twice I have been provoked and have asked the company how many of them could describe the Second Law of Thermodynamics. The response was cold: it was also negative. Yet I was asking something which is the scientific equivalent of: Have you read a work of Shakespeare's? But that's not quite true, is it. In the one case, he's asking someone to explain a very specific thing (one particular physical law), and i…

I feel like knowing the rough plot of hamlet is about equivalent of knowing roughly what the idea of newton's law of gravity is.
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