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U.S. Could Run Out of Cash by June 1, Yellen Warns

nytimes.com

31–40 of 68 posts

Re: U.S. Could Run Out of Cash by June 1, Yellen Warns

#31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with 1 is that, if the Supreme Court rules that the debt ceiling limit is constitutional, then the US is right then, as of the moment of the ruling, in default. That's an insanely risky gamble.

Sure, and what if the court said the First Amendment of the Constitution was unconstitutional? The courts can interpret the Constitution. They cannot disregard it wholesale. The power of the judicial branch is not absolute. It can be checked by the other two: the legislative branch and the executive branch. And one way for the executive branch to check the judicial branch is to disregard judicial rulings that are bla…

> And one way for the executive branch to check the judicial branch is to disregard judicial rulings that are blatantly unconstitutional, just like the judicial branch regularly invalidates entire laws and government programs.

That is totally not how this works. But if it did... what decisions would you have the executive ignore? Dred Scott? That would be fine. The one in 1942 that allows the Interstate Commerce clause to apply to what is clearly in-state commerce? Yeah, that one, too.

How about Roe v. Wade? That was pretty clearly going beyond the bounds of the Constitution. ("Penumbra"? Why not just admit that you're stretching it past the breaking point?) Do you really want Richard Nixon deciding whether he can throw out Roe v. Wade?

The one time that I know of where the president blatantly threw out a Supreme Court decision was when Andrew Jackson ignored the court's decision that whites could not encroach on Cherokee land.

Do you really want the president deciding which Supreme Court decisions are "clearly unconstitutional"? Not only is the president less of a constitutional scholar than the justices are, he is also more blatantly political than they are. He's going to judge the judges' decisions? That's a terrible idea, and it's absolutely not how checks and balances work.

And the fact that you think that is both good and constitutional makes me really unimpressed with your view that the debt ceiling is clearly unconstitutional...

Re: U.S. Could Run Out of Cash by June 1, Yellen Warns

#32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>And one way for the executive branch to check the judicial branch is to disregard judicial rulings that are blatantly unconstitutional. That is not at all how the Constitution is set up. There is no explicit power for the executive to ignore the judicial. It has happened once in US history, when Andrew Jackson continued his genocide against the Cherokee after the Supreme Court had ordered it stopped. "John Marshall…

> There is no explicit power for the executive to ignore the judicial. But there is: it's called the Constitution. Not any particular clause or article, but the whole document. The executive is allowed to check the judicial if the judicial ignores the Constitution. How else is the executive supposed to check the judicial? > It would be a VERY BAD precedent to do that again. It would be a bad precedent, but it would b…

> > There is no explicit power for the executive to ignore the judicial.

> But there is: it's called the Constitution. Not any particular clause or article, but the whole document

Then it's not in the constitution.

> The executive is allowed to check the judicial if the judicial ignores the Constitution.

He is? Where, specifically, does it say that?

> How else is the executive supposed to check the judicial?

He's not. The senate is, by impeachment.

Stop making stuff up, and actually read what's there.

Re: U.S. Could Run Out of Cash by June 1, Yellen Warns

#33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>And one way for the executive branch to check the judicial branch is to disregard judicial rulings that are blatantly unconstitutional. That is not at all how the Constitution is set up. There is no explicit power for the executive to ignore the judicial. It has happened once in US history, when Andrew Jackson continued his genocide against the Cherokee after the Supreme Court had ordered it stopped. "John Marshall…

> There is no explicit power for the executive to ignore the judicial. But there is: it's called the Constitution. Not any particular clause or article, but the whole document. The executive is allowed to check the judicial if the judicial ignores the Constitution. How else is the executive supposed to check the judicial? > It would be a VERY BAD precedent to do that again. It would be a bad precedent, but it would b…

> How else is the executive supposed to check the judicial?

Pardons and nominating judges. Disregarding the Court is a constitutional crisis.

> would be an even worse precedent for the Supreme Court to force the government to default on its debt

On one hand, we have the Court allowing the President to overrule the Congress. Two branches agree. On the other hand, we have the President unilaterally overruling the Congress and the Court. One is a check. The other a coup.

Re: U.S. Could Run Out of Cash by June 1, Yellen Warns

#34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with 1 is that, if the Supreme Court rules that the debt ceiling limit is constitutional, then the US is right then, as of the moment of the ruling, in default. That's an insanely risky gamble.

Sure, and what if the court said the First Amendment of the Constitution was unconstitutional? The courts can interpret the Constitution. They cannot disregard it wholesale. The power of the judicial branch is not absolute. It can be checked by the other two: the legislative branch and the executive branch. And one way for the executive branch to check the judicial branch is to disregard judicial rulings that are bla…

"And one way for the executive branch to check the judicial branch is to disregard judicial rulings that are blatantly unconstitutional, just like the judicial branch regularly invalidates entire laws and government programs."

That is not even remotely true. That is not a power of the executive branch, which is supposed to uphold the law.

Re: U.S. Could Run Out of Cash by June 1, Yellen Warns

#35
post #7

there are many ways to avoid default. (1) discharge petition - bill from committee to a vote. (2) Fourteenth Amendment Constitution prevents willful default until SCOTUS says otherwise. Just keep issuing debt. (3) High coupon and low principal. 10-year bond with $1 in principal and annual $100 coupon will increase debt ceiling almost 1000X. (4) high denominations coin minting

> (4) high denominations coin minting Far and away the most entertaining path. Who gets to carry the trillion dollar coin from the mint to the treasury? How many heist plots will be foiled? How many movies about said heist plots will be made? Will there be a elaborate motorcade that's ultimately a ruse while the coin is sent by USPS in a plain envelope?

> Who gets to carry the trillion dollar coin from the mint to the treasury?

We should pick America's wealthiest and therefore most trustworthy citizen to do the job.

Bizarrely enough, Simpsons did it.[0]

[0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_KgHy3Pi5Yw

Re: U.S. Could Run Out of Cash by June 1, Yellen Warns

#36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, and what if the court said the First Amendment of the Constitution was unconstitutional? The courts can interpret the Constitution. They cannot disregard it wholesale. The power of the judicial branch is not absolute. It can be checked by the other two: the legislative branch and the executive branch. And one way for the executive branch to check the judicial branch is to disregard judicial rulings that are bla…

"And one way for the executive branch to check the judicial branch is to disregard judicial rulings that are blatantly unconstitutional, just like the judicial branch regularly invalidates entire laws and government programs." That is not even remotely true. That is not a power of the executive branch, which is supposed to uphold the law.

Andrew disagrees

Re: U.S. Could Run Out of Cash by June 1, Yellen Warns

#37
post #7

there are many ways to avoid default. (1) discharge petition - bill from committee to a vote. (2) Fourteenth Amendment Constitution prevents willful default until SCOTUS says otherwise. Just keep issuing debt. (3) High coupon and low principal. 10-year bond with $1 in principal and annual $100 coupon will increase debt ceiling almost 1000X. (4) high denominations coin minting

> (4) high denominations coin minting Far and away the most entertaining path. Who gets to carry the trillion dollar coin from the mint to the treasury? How many heist plots will be foiled? How many movies about said heist plots will be made? Will there be a elaborate motorcade that's ultimately a ruse while the coin is sent by USPS in a plain envelope?

What would be the point of stealing a trillion dollar coin? Who could fence it?

Re: U.S. Could Run Out of Cash by June 1, Yellen Warns

#38
post #18
post #7

there are many ways to avoid default. (1) discharge petition - bill from committee to a vote. (2) Fourteenth Amendment Constitution prevents willful default until SCOTUS says otherwise. Just keep issuing debt. (3) High coupon and low principal. 10-year bond with $1 in principal and annual $100 coupon will increase debt ceiling almost 1000X. (4) high denominations coin minting

These are bandaids. Very soon it will become apparent that the US needs to take extraordinary measures to solve its debt problem, and such measures need an extraordinary excuse, more extraordinary than the recent pandemic.

I mean why ruin the infinite money hose the U.S. has?

Re: U.S. Could Run Out of Cash by June 1, Yellen Warns

#39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There is no explicit power for the executive to ignore the judicial. But there is: it's called the Constitution. Not any particular clause or article, but the whole document. The executive is allowed to check the judicial if the judicial ignores the Constitution. How else is the executive supposed to check the judicial? > It would be a VERY BAD precedent to do that again. It would be a bad precedent, but it would b…

> How else is the executive supposed to check the judicial? Pardons and nominating judges. Disregarding the Court is a constitutional crisis. > would be an even worse precedent for the Supreme Court to force the government to default on its debt On one hand, we have the Court allowing the President to overrule the Congress. Two branches agree. On the other hand, we have the President unilaterally overruling the Congr…

> Disregarding the Court is a constitutional crisis.

Then a constitutional crisis there shall be. Words don't scare me. If a "constitutional crisis" means the government _doesn't_ default on its debt and some politicians and pundits cry foul, and nothing else changes under the heavens, then let's have a "constitutional crisis".

> On the other hand, we have the President unilaterally overruling the Congress and the Court. One is a check. The other a coup.

Congress can impeach and convict if it's such a big deal. Until they do...

Re: U.S. Could Run Out of Cash by June 1, Yellen Warns

#40
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> (4) high denominations coin minting Far and away the most entertaining path. Who gets to carry the trillion dollar coin from the mint to the treasury? How many heist plots will be foiled? How many movies about said heist plots will be made? Will there be a elaborate motorcade that's ultimately a ruse while the coin is sent by USPS in a plain envelope?

What would be the point of stealing a trillion dollar coin? Who could fence it?

Sounds like something Cobra from GI Joe would do. But in reality, it would have little value to anyone other than the intended bearer.
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