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What is it like to be a bat? (1974) [pdf]

warwick.ac.uk

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Re: What is it like to be a bat? (1974) [pdf]

#31
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://www.cs.bham.ac.uk/research/projects/cogaff/misc/like...

This kind of retort is a rookie error in the field of philosophy of mind. It clings too closely to notions of 1) self-awareness as an essential component of awareness per se (it's not) and 2) awareness as an essential component of experience per se (it's not). Edit: I was referring to the link, not the top-level comment. It reads like an attempt at rebuttal from someone relatively unfamiliar with the field writ large…

This kind of retort is a rookie error in the field of comedy. It clings too closely to notions like 1) there's no place for humor in a serious discussion (there is) and 2) you're smarter than everyone else (you're not)

Re: What is it like to be a bat? (1974) [pdf]

#32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You and I experience the world very differently. Do you have an internal monologue?

Some people don't. Some people also think visually and translate their visual images to words when communicating. There are even some people who don't feel pain, which can be a problem.

That’s why I asked! I wanted to know if that lack affects one’s interpretation of their own consciousness hence our different thoughts on the matter.

Re: What is it like to be a bat? (1974) [pdf]

#33

I am increasingly of the opinion that the phrases "what it is like to be a bat", or "there is something it is like to be a bat", are simply a linguistic sleight of hand masking a plain old dualistic standpoint. Just because these sentences make sense in our everyday language, does not mean they are suitable for technical and rigorous philosophical discussions. For one, the "something" in the 2nd formulation (or simpl…

>a linguistic sleight of hand masking a plain old dualistic standpoint.

These terms are getting at something central to consciousness, the fact that there is a conceptual duality between how we conceive of it from the first-person and how we conceive of it from an objective standpoint. We can't disavow this conceptual duality, a theorist offering an explanation of consciousness that doesn't capture this dual nature of the phenomenon will be rightly considered eliminating the explananda.

But a conceptual duality does not imply an ontological duality. In other words, the fact that we conceive of consciousness in these seemingly opposing ways does not imply two separate phenomena. The term dualism has become a shibboleth to be avoided in serious philosophy of mind, but this is a mistake. A satisfying explanation of consciousness must offer some phenomena that carries a resemblance to our personal datum as experiencers of sensations. This must then be related to the scientific story of how electrical signals are transformed into behavior. This just is the problem of consciousness. Anything less misses the point.

>For one, the "something" in the 2nd formulation [...] is most readily interpreted as an object, closing the door to any process-like interpretation of consciousness.

I agree that the language we use in describing consciousness is unfortunate and has done real damage to what we consider as promising avenues for investigation. We are cognitively biased towards conceptualizing the world in terms of "things" and so we expect our explanations to also be in terms of things. When consciousness isn't found in thing-ness we are tempted to posit a new kind of thing that carries the conscious properties. But we've been lead off course by our initial conceptualization. I'm in favor of seeing objects as processes rather than discrete units. Consciousness is likely in the active dynamics rather than any static property.

>I can easily imagine a complete physicalist explanation of consciousness which would still not lead to a valid answer of "what is it like to be a bat" due to quite obvious limitations of language or the plain invalidity of the question.

Yeah, we will never know "what its like" to experience the existence of another living creature. But this is just a limitation of physical descriptions. This isn't a demerit of physicalism or materialism as a methodology. This is no reason to turn to alternative methodologies that can only hope to offer pseudo-explanations of consciousness at best.

Re: What is it like to be a bat? (1974) [pdf]

#34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some people don't. Some people also think visually and translate their visual images to words when communicating. There are even some people who don't feel pain, which can be a problem.

That’s why I asked! I wanted to know if that lack affects one’s interpretation of their own consciousness hence our different thoughts on the matter.

I recall reading where some philosophers were skeptical that people actually had mental images when visualizing. But an experiment was performed asking people to rotate mental images in their head versus calculate the rotation, and there was a measurable difference between the two activities. The person writing the article suspected that the skeptical philosophers were bad at visualization and assumed everyone else was unable to rotate images in their mind. Which is a logical fallacy.

Re: What is it like to be a bat? (1974) [pdf]

#35

I've read this before. That's why I think the question "do animals have consciousness?" is meaningless, because "consciousness" usually implies "like ours." They have something that probably bears some relationship to ours. Some birds have a "theory of mind" where they know what you know, e.g. whether you saw them hide the food. It would be possible (maybe someone's already done it?) to enumerate the N tests of "cons…

Consciousness means there is "something it's like" to have an experience. It need not be human. That would be needlessly anthropocentric. Animals have a range of sensory organs and body plans which differer from humans. Why wouldn't they also have a range of differing conscious experiences? It could be seeing the world in more than three primary colors, hearing frequencies we cannot, detecting the Earth's magnetic fi…

You're begging the question here, which is:

What defines 'consciousness'?

Re: What is it like to be a bat? (1974) [pdf]

#36
post #18
post #4

> But bat sonar, though clearly a form of perception,is not similar in its operation to any sense that we possess, and there is no reason to suppose that it is subjectively like anything we can experience or imagine. Philosophy aside, bat sonar is different from the senses we possess in an really interesting way. Our eyes have excellent spatial resolution (up/down, left/right), some rough depth resolution (from stere…

Interestingly enough, humans have been able to use echo location, primarily in blind individuals. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_echolocation

Yeah! As far as I can tell from the research, what's going on there is primarily getting range information from the amplitude of the return (rather than delay or phase like "real" sonar uses). But still, it's very useful our brains are elastic enough to allow us to develop new senses!

Re: What is it like to be a bat? (1974) [pdf]

#37
post #4

> But bat sonar, though clearly a form of perception,is not similar in its operation to any sense that we possess, and there is no reason to suppose that it is subjectively like anything we can experience or imagine. Philosophy aside, bat sonar is different from the senses we possess in an really interesting way. Our eyes have excellent spatial resolution (up/down, left/right), some rough depth resolution (from stere…

There are video games based on the concept of echolocation, but the ones I know implement it a bit like a pulsing flashlight in a wireframe style scene. Probably not at all how it would feel like.

Maybe attempting a more realistic depiction of echolocation could lead to interesting gameplay. There are already some games interesting games based on lidar.

Re: What is it like to be a bat? (1974) [pdf]

#38
post #6

I think the closest we might get to actually learning what it is like to be a bat is by unsupervised learning + a bit of manual labelling on top. A neural net could learn their states and dynamics, by training on a million hours of bat recordings. These representations will already encode bat states and values, so we just need the bridge to human language, which is easy to build with a pretrained language model. This…

This is an interesting idea, but I don't find it particularly germane to Nagel's question. To someone with a hammer, everything looks like a nail. To someone with an LLM, everything looks like a set of data to be trained on, I suppose.suppose.

Re: What is it like to be a bat? (1974) [pdf]

#39
post #22

I am increasingly of the opinion that the phrases "what it is like to be a bat", or "there is something it is like to be a bat", are simply a linguistic sleight of hand masking a plain old dualistic standpoint. Just because these sentences make sense in our everyday language, does not mean they are suitable for technical and rigorous philosophical discussions. For one, the "something" in the 2nd formulation (or simpl…

I don't understand what you mean by sleight of hand. It seems a very straightforward question that makes sense in our everyday use of language, as you admit. Just because it's difficult to rigorously analyze this statement into scientific concepts, it doesn't follow that the question is invalid. In fact the point of the question is to show shortcomings in our current science. Also, I would dispute the assertion that…

> I don't understand what you mean by sleight of hand.

He means that it implicitly smuggles in a certain conclusion. For instance, "I think therefore I am" seems logically sound, but actually begs the question in presupposing "I" to then conclude that "I" exists.

Or ask an innocent person a question like, "when did you stop beating your wife?"

> There are many synonymous ways of phrasing the question: e.g., describe the subjective experience of a bat.

If you can describe a subjective experience in a way that is not circularly tied to experiencing it, is it really subjective experience? If you can formulate an objective description, then the subjective experience was an illusion all along, because "subjective" doesn't mean what we think it means, ie. "non-objective".

This is the linguistic game the OP is referring to. Natural language can lead you into all sorts of traps like, thinking there's something there but it's really just a conceptual mirage we've sort of invented.

Re: What is it like to be a bat? (1974) [pdf]

#40
post #7

One excellent book on consciousness is Mcginn's The Mysterious Flame [1]. I knew consciousness is a hard problem, but the book made it clear how baffling and utterly mysterious it is. I am still absolutely flabbergasted when I think about it (how on earth does consciousness arise from material "meat"?! [2] Where are pain and color and subjective experience really located in the material universe?). It also made me sk…

Here's one attempt:

A conceptual framework for consciousness, https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.2116933119

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