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Design a keyboard with Ergogen v4

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Re: Design a keyboard with Ergogen v4

#31

Post by microtonal »

CarVac wrote: post #26
microtonal wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no one-size-fits-all ergo keyboard, which is why the dactyl has a configurator. This is a bit of a trope in places like /r/ErgoMechKeyboards/. However, it's a bit of an empty statement without further data. Of course hand sizes/shapes differ, but the question is if they differ enough to preclude designs that work for a majority of the population. If you look at e.g. hand length/width datasets, within a group…

Hand width and size are not the only things to take into account. The resting curl of your hand is important, as is relative finger lengths (particularly of the pinky). And then there's resting thumb position relative to the fingers.

The same applies to all these dimensions. They are not completely random and most will be normally distributed when measured. Also, as I said keyboards can accommodate multiple lenghts e.g. by having multiple thumb keys where you use a subset of them.

At any rate, I have seen plenty of folks who had issues like wrist pains, etc. that were resolved by improving posture, taking regular breaks, doing exercises and switching to a split, tented keyboard (just a boring one with a traditional layout like a Freestyle).

Only people who went (too?) far down the rabbit hole do all these micro-optimizations and proclaim that their keyboard is 'the end game' after having used it for a few weeks. Until the next end game :).

Re: Design a keyboard with Ergogen v4

#32

Post by simplotek »

lars_francke wrote: post #4

I've been too afraid of asking on Reddit. I'd love a split keyboard with an integrated trackball but the community is creating an overwhelming amount of new content and products. I have not been able to find a good entry point. The threads often reference shops, specific people, firmwares or discord communities without going into details. Does anyone happen to know a good resource for how and where to get started tod…

> I've been too afraid of asking on Reddit. I'd love a split keyboard with an integrated trackball (...)

I'd already be happy if there were mechanical keyboards out there that offered USB passthrough to connect things like yubikeys, a trackpad or headphones. So far the only one I'm aware that has those is the Royal Kludge rk84, but I doesn't seem to be a popular choice.

Re: Design a keyboard with Ergogen v4

#33

Post by microtonal »

goosedragons wrote: post #23
leononame wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm really looking for a good ergonomic keyboard right now (split or non-split). I'm using Redox, but the bamboo case is falling apart and sometimes I miss F-keys (it'd be nice to one-shot steps during debugging rather than having to press a key combination) or a physical numpad (for entering numbers I prefer the numpad, but I just don't love switching layers). The Ergo K860 looks nice. I've also been eyeing the Kine…

I really like my regular Kinesis Advantage 2 which does have F-keys although admittedly small ones. I don't use them too much. They are easy to reach which I like though. I think having Ortho layout makes using the numpad on the Kinesis a lot better. The big ergo benefit to me is the thumb clusters and the fact I can remap keys like (),[],{},~ to be easier to press. I have setup the "delete" key on the thumb cluster…

I don't think MS/Logitech boards go far enough even in the split department.

I agree that the split of the Advantage is nicer. However, the MS/Logitech boards do not only split, they also put the halves at an angle, compensating quite a bit for their relatively narrow split. There are some papers that investigate these compromises.

In the end it depends on the amount that you want to spend. A 420 Euro Advantage2 is probably going to be better. But the Microsoft/Logitech/Alice boards are a good compromise if you do not want to spend more than 100-200 Euro on a keyboard. Though at the 200 price point it's probably better to stretch it a little and get something split and tented like the Freestyle Edge, which sometimes goes for 200 + 30 for the tenting set from some vendors.

(Sometimes you get lucky, I found a mint Keyboardio Model 100 on a local marketplace for 150 Euro with the octo feet. It's over 500 Euro after VAT and shipping when you import it to The Netherlands.)

Re: Design a keyboard with Ergogen v4

#34

Post by cduzz »

goosedragons wrote: post #23
leononame wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm really looking for a good ergonomic keyboard right now (split or non-split). I'm using Redox, but the bamboo case is falling apart and sometimes I miss F-keys (it'd be nice to one-shot steps during debugging rather than having to press a key combination) or a physical numpad (for entering numbers I prefer the numpad, but I just don't love switching layers). The Ergo K860 looks nice. I've also been eyeing the Kine…

I really like my regular Kinesis Advantage 2 which does have F-keys although admittedly small ones. I don't use them too much. They are easy to reach which I like though. I think having Ortho layout makes using the numpad on the Kinesis a lot better. The big ergo benefit to me is the thumb clusters and the fact I can remap keys like (),[],{},~ to be easier to press. I have setup the "delete" key on the thumb cluster…

I've found that the best "split" keyboard is simply to use two decent keyboards on the same computer. When I am in a situation where I'm doing tons of typing (not that often anymore) I'll have the two keyboards a bit more than a body width apart. Unfortunately macos doesn't apply modifier keys (shift / meta / ctl) from one device to the other (IE if I press left shift on the left keyboard I don't get a capital L if I press it on the right keyboard). Windows did this just fine.

For just general sysadmining around, one keyboard's been fine for me. Frequent breaks, standing up and moving, etc, have much more of an impact on fatigue than the quality of the keyboard. That said, I've found that the 1990s model M4-1 to be an absolutely spectacular keyboard.

Re: Design a keyboard with Ergogen v4

#35

Post by ozozozd »

ceoloide wrote: post #24

Check out the Samoklava GitHub repository ( https://github.com/soundmonster/samoklava ) for an example of auto-generated and auto-routed board leveraging Ergogen. I am following on the steps of FlatFootFox to replicate the Corne (Cherry) in code, WIP for the moment: https://github.com/ceoloide/corney-island Don't forget to support the creator of Ergogen, MrZealot: https://github.com/sponsors/mrzealot

What does routing mean in this context?

Re: Design a keyboard with Ergogen v4

#36

Post by fellowmartian »

ozozozd wrote: post #35
ceoloide wrote: post #24

Check out the Samoklava GitHub repository ( https://github.com/soundmonster/samoklava ) for an example of auto-generated and auto-routed board leveraging Ergogen. I am following on the steps of FlatFootFox to replicate the Corne (Cherry) in code, WIP for the moment: https://github.com/ceoloide/corney-island Don't forget to support the creator of Ergogen, MrZealot: https://github.com/sponsors/mrzealot

What does routing mean in this context?

PCB trace routing

Re: Design a keyboard with Ergogen v4

#37

Post by CarVac »

microtonal wrote: post #31
CarVac wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hand width and size are not the only things to take into account. The resting curl of your hand is important, as is relative finger lengths (particularly of the pinky). And then there's resting thumb position relative to the fingers.

The same applies to all these dimensions. They are not completely random and most will be normally distributed when measured. Also, as I said keyboards can accommodate multiple lenghts e.g. by having multiple thumb keys where you use a subset of them. At any rate, I have seen plenty of folks who had issues like wrist pains, etc. that were resolved by improving posture, taking regular breaks, doing exercises and switc…

They may be normally distributed, but most people have at least one or two outlier parameters that customization could help with.

Personally I just suggest going to a keyboard meetup and trying out a bunch of ergos and picking the design you find most comfortable.

I lucked into the Mitosis layout in 2017 (literally, I won it in a raffle) and have used it ever since. True endgame.

Re: Design a keyboard with Ergogen v4

#38

Post by comfypotato »

microtonal wrote: post #11
lars_francke wrote: post #4

I've been too afraid of asking on Reddit. I'd love a split keyboard with an integrated trackball but the community is creating an overwhelming amount of new content and products. I have not been able to find a good entry point. The threads often reference shops, specific people, firmwares or discord communities without going into details. Does anyone happen to know a good resource for how and where to get started tod…

As someone who has made a bunch of keyboards (including hand wiring), I agree that the space is very hard to navigate. Especially since /r/ErgoMechKeyboards/ has gone full "the only ergonomic keyboard is a hand-soldered keyboard that only 50 other people use", while for most people a prebuilt ergo keyboard would be fine and a large improvement over a $15 black slab. What makes it worse is that most designs do no have…

Can you elaborate on the thumb problems from Manuforms? This is the first I’ve heard of them. I’m in the process of building a corne Manuform.

Re: Design a keyboard with Ergogen v4

#39

Post by robohoe »

microtonal wrote: post #11
lars_francke wrote: post #4

I've been too afraid of asking on Reddit. I'd love a split keyboard with an integrated trackball but the community is creating an overwhelming amount of new content and products. I have not been able to find a good entry point. The threads often reference shops, specific people, firmwares or discord communities without going into details. Does anyone happen to know a good resource for how and where to get started tod…

As someone who has made a bunch of keyboards (including hand wiring), I agree that the space is very hard to navigate. Especially since /r/ErgoMechKeyboards/ has gone full "the only ergonomic keyboard is a hand-soldered keyboard that only 50 other people use", while for most people a prebuilt ergo keyboard would be fine and a large improvement over a $15 black slab. What makes it worse is that most designs do no have…

How about a split mech like Mister Barroco? Easy to find in online shops. It splits and you can have a trackball in the middle.

Re: Design a keyboard with Ergogen v4

#40

Post by loriverkutya »

CarVac wrote: post #37
microtonal wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The same applies to all these dimensions. They are not completely random and most will be normally distributed when measured. Also, as I said keyboards can accommodate multiple lenghts e.g. by having multiple thumb keys where you use a subset of them. At any rate, I have seen plenty of folks who had issues like wrist pains, etc. that were resolved by improving posture, taking regular breaks, doing exercises and switc…

They may be normally distributed, but most people have at least one or two outlier parameters that customization could help with. Personally I just suggest going to a keyboard meetup and trying out a bunch of ergos and picking the design you find most comfortable. I lucked into the Mitosis layout in 2017 (literally, I won it in a raffle) and have used it ever since. True endgame.

Could you show the data this statement is based on?

|most people have at least one or two outlier parameters that customization could |help with.

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