Smuggling of silkworm eggs into the Byzantine Empire • Hacker News Board

Re: Smuggling of silkworm eggs into the Byzantine Empire

#31

Post by knodi123 » Thu, Apr 20, 2023, 5:01 PM UTC

Jeff_Brown wrote: post #27

ptsneves wrote: post #21

Byzantine history is so important to understand the modern world. It gives us the context for the orthodox/west divide; it gives us an example of a economic and intellectual superpower needing to live with the realities of barbarian neighbors, and being destroyed! It shows us great statecraft lasting a thousand years. It even shows us why generals and senior civil servants were eunuchs and how the next best thing was…

Carrying that logic further, then, would it be better if public servants had no friends? If everyone anywhere but the lowest rung of the corporate ladder (from which one does not typically make hiring decisions) also had no family? For only the least (conventionally) successful to reproduce seems problematic.

> Carrying that logic further

Or rather, "carrying it to an extreme". But we don't have to carry it that far. Eliminating inherited positions is a huge and sufficient improvement. If you go all the way to "no family or friends at all", yeah, I'd agree the problematic aspects might outweigh the benefits.

Re: Smuggling of silkworm eggs into the Byzantine Empire

#32

Post by thomasahle » Thu, Apr 20, 2023, 5:04 PM UTC

drcode wrote: post #26

ptsneves wrote: post #21

Byzantine history is so important to understand the modern world. It gives us the context for the orthodox/west divide; it gives us an example of a economic and intellectual superpower needing to live with the realities of barbarian neighbors, and being destroyed! It shows us great statecraft lasting a thousand years. It even shows us why generals and senior civil servants were eunuchs and how the next best thing was…

I do find it curious that not that much science came out of the Byzantine empire- Yes there was some, but (with my admittedly limited knowledge) it does seem to pale in comparison to the earlier stuff from Greece, Rome or even the Arab Caliphates with their scholars in Mathematics and Physics. It seems like it was intellectual, but didn't have a proportional output of science or art that has stood the test of time. F…

Unfortunately for the Byzantine empire it spent most of its centuries in a population/territory/economic decline.

Back in 541-542 an outbreak killed about 40% of the city’s population. But even during the period 1347-1453, a total of 61 plague reports were noted.

They only had the wealth, peace and population to focus on science to a very small degree. That they managed to stay afloat for as long as they did is a testament to the science the original Romans left them, and which we can thank the Byzantine's for preserving.

Re: Smuggling of silkworm eggs into the Byzantine Empire

#33

Post by throw_pm23 » Thu, Apr 20, 2023, 5:08 PM UTC

drcode wrote: post #26

ptsneves wrote: post #21

Byzantine history is so important to understand the modern world. It gives us the context for the orthodox/west divide; it gives us an example of a economic and intellectual superpower needing to live with the realities of barbarian neighbors, and being destroyed! It shows us great statecraft lasting a thousand years. It even shows us why generals and senior civil servants were eunuchs and how the next best thing was…

I do find it curious that not that much science came out of the Byzantine empire- Yes there was some, but (with my admittedly limited knowledge) it does seem to pale in comparison to the earlier stuff from Greece, Rome or even the Arab Caliphates with their scholars in Mathematics and Physics. It seems like it was intellectual, but didn't have a proportional output of science or art that has stood the test of time. F…

There is a strange trend of downplaying Byzantine heritage.. for instance modern Greek society seems to uphold the ancient Greeks much more, when in fact there are much closer ties to the Byzantine... a few hundred years ago it wouldn't have occurred to any Greek that they are connected to the ancients, and this trend has started with European Romantics.

But they did produce significant art and science, and especially architecture: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hagia_Sophia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byzantine_science

There would have been no transmission of the classics without the Byzantine, and possibly no Renaissance in Europe.

Re: Smuggling of silkworm eggs into the Byzantine Empire

#34

Post by qwytw » Thu, Apr 20, 2023, 5:12 PM UTC

ptsneves wrote: post #21

Byzantine history is so important to understand the modern world. It gives us the context for the orthodox/west divide; it gives us an example of a economic and intellectual superpower needing to live with the realities of barbarian neighbors, and being destroyed! It shows us great statecraft lasting a thousand years. It even shows us why generals and senior civil servants were eunuchs and how the next best thing was…

> It even shows us why generals and senior civil servants were eunuchs

That was the case for "only" around a third to a half of the empire's existence. But by the 1000 ADs appointing eunuchs to high posts fell out of fashion with emperors appointing family members or leading in the field directly (unlike in Justinians day when emperors spent almost their entire reign being cloistered in the palace).

Somewhere between the first and third crusades there was a non-insignificant chance of the empire becoming much more integrated with Latin/Catholic west. Later Komnenian emperors started adopting Western customs, had fairly good relations with most Crusader and Western States and were attempting to reunite the both churches officially.

Of course this process culminated when a French princess became an effective ruler of the empire as a regent for her underage son, she surrounded herself with Latins and parceled off pretty much everything she could off to Italian Merchants. This was met with an extremely violent backlash culminating in her and her son being murdered and a literal genocide (or at least a massive pogrom) of all the westerns living in Constantinople (10-20% of all the people living in the city). And the split was made permanent by the even more violent sack during the 4th crusade by the westerners.

Re: Smuggling of silkworm eggs into the Byzantine Empire

#35

Post by whythre » Thu, Apr 20, 2023, 5:24 PM UTC

peteradio wrote: post #16

giraffe_lady wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Silk has unique characteristics as a material, and in a pre-plastic pre-industrial world with relatively few viable fabric materials (and all of them profoundly labor-intensive by modern standards) it would have been valuable regardless. Obviously its rarity, social connotations, and mysterious origins had a huge effect on its value. But like gold, its characteristics alone are enough to cause people to go through th…

IMO we shouldn't have started wearing clothes to begin with, it was a bad call. If my ancestors could have just held off on that I'd have nice thick fur right now.

I mean… if you stick to the areas that mimic the early hominid climate you don’t really need them. Lots of modern tropical tribes wear functionally zero clothing.

Re: Smuggling of silkworm eggs into the Byzantine Empire

#36

Post by _a_a_a_ » Thu, Apr 20, 2023, 5:26 PM UTC

ptsneves wrote: post #21

Byzantine history is so important to understand the modern world. It gives us the context for the orthodox/west divide; it gives us an example of a economic and intellectual superpower needing to live with the realities of barbarian neighbors, and being destroyed! It shows us great statecraft lasting a thousand years. It even shows us why generals and senior civil servants were eunuchs and how the next best thing was…

> It even shows us why generals and senior civil servants were eunuchs and how the next best thing was celibate people

ok. why?

Re: Smuggling of silkworm eggs into the Byzantine Empire

#37

Post by qwytw » Thu, Apr 20, 2023, 5:33 PM UTC

nerdponx wrote: post #25

ptsneves wrote: post #21

Byzantine history is so important to understand the modern world. It gives us the context for the orthodox/west divide; it gives us an example of a economic and intellectual superpower needing to live with the realities of barbarian neighbors, and being destroyed! It shows us great statecraft lasting a thousand years. It even shows us why generals and senior civil servants were eunuchs and how the next best thing was…

One thing I learned recently is that 12th Century Fourth Crusade actually culminated in sacking Constantinople and establishment of the "Latin Empire", as the intended successor of the Byzantine Empire, which only existed for a brief time before it was recaptured by a rump state founded by exiled Byzantine aristocrats. Apparently (and understandably) this led to major deterioration in East-West Christian relations, a…

The Fourth Crusade was preceded by:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_of_the_Latins

which was a reaction to the empire becoming near completely dominated by westerns both economically and (to a lesser degree) politically.

The last coup attempt/civil war (which was also a near permanent issue in the empire) before the massacre was between a French Princess ruling the empire as a regent for her underage son and her stepdaughter who was married to a Frankish nobleman from the Outremer (he was -the second highest ranking official in the empire and seemingly the heir apparent together with his wife). Had they succeeded the Empire would probably have had its first Latin Emperor (or at least co-Emperor) without even being directly conquered. Of course instead it ended with late emperor's cousin* murdering (he forced the 12 year old emperor to sign her mothers death warrant and before having him assassinated soon after). mothers everyone and taking the throne for himself after he masterfully utilized the widespread public hatred towards the Latins amongst the general population..

*Andronikos Komnenos, who was in his middle 60s at the time and while being quite a terrible person had a very interesting life. Amongst other things (while in exile due all kinds of scheming) he seduced the former queen of Jerusalem (who happened to be his niece..) and up having two children with her after they ran away to the Turkish Sultanate of Damascus. Eventually she was captured by the emperor who used her to lure Andronikos into Constantinople and then (unfortunately for the emperor's son) decided pardon him and exile him to a remote province instead of executing him.

Re: Smuggling of silkworm eggs into the Byzantine Empire

#38

Post by steveBK123 » Thu, Apr 20, 2023, 5:46 PM UTC

qwytw wrote: post #37

nerdponx wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One thing I learned recently is that 12th Century Fourth Crusade actually culminated in sacking Constantinople and establishment of the "Latin Empire", as the intended successor of the Byzantine Empire, which only existed for a brief time before it was recaptured by a rump state founded by exiled Byzantine aristocrats. Apparently (and understandably) this led to major deterioration in East-West Christian relations, a…

The Fourth Crusade was preceded by: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_of_the_Latins which was a reaction to the empire becoming near completely dominated by westerns both economically and (to a lesser degree) politically. The last coup attempt/civil war (which was also a near permanent issue in the empire) before the massacre was between a French Princess ruling the empire as a regent for her underage son and he…

Thanks for sharing, i read a lot of history and while I was generally aware of the western sacking of Constantinople during the crusades.. I wasn’t aware this preceded it.

Re: Smuggling of silkworm eggs into the Byzantine Empire

#39

Post by kmlx » Thu, Apr 20, 2023, 5:46 PM UTC

ptsneves wrote: post #21

Byzantine history is so important to understand the modern world. It gives us the context for the orthodox/west divide; it gives us an example of a economic and intellectual superpower needing to live with the realities of barbarian neighbors, and being destroyed! It shows us great statecraft lasting a thousand years. It even shows us why generals and senior civil servants were eunuchs and how the next best thing was…

one random tidbit that struck me was that the term "Byzantine Empire" was actually an invention from the 1500's.

the "byzantine" people actually called themselves Romans, and the empire was called "Roman Empire".

Re: Smuggling of silkworm eggs into the Byzantine Empire

#40

Post by [deleted] » Thu, Apr 20, 2023, 5:52 PM UTC

nerdponx wrote: post #25

ptsneves wrote: post #21

Byzantine history is so important to understand the modern world. It gives us the context for the orthodox/west divide; it gives us an example of a economic and intellectual superpower needing to live with the realities of barbarian neighbors, and being destroyed! It shows us great statecraft lasting a thousand years. It even shows us why generals and senior civil servants were eunuchs and how the next best thing was…

One thing I learned recently is that 12th Century Fourth Crusade actually culminated in sacking Constantinople and establishment of the "Latin Empire", as the intended successor of the Byzantine Empire, which only existed for a brief time before it was recaptured by a rump state founded by exiled Byzantine aristocrats. Apparently (and understandably) this led to major deterioration in East-West Christian relations, a…

[deleted]