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Facebook’s 99%: Later employees may pay almost double the tax rate

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Re: Facebook’s 99%: Later employees may pay almost double the tax rate

#31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't that the whole point of the story? Zuck paid income tax on the initial grant's value (which may be par value), and the stock's appreciation will only be taxed at the reduced capital gains rate?

> Isn't that the whole point of the story? No, it is not. This sentence in bold tells you they do not understand: "Zuckerberg will be paying taxes on $5 billion in gains from exercising options." If you don't understand why that is different than my comment, then you don't understand the issues of the 83B election also. Now, odds are you a smart person. And that is my point: It doesn't matter how smart you are; The v…

Thank you for the 83(b) mention. The article completely glosses over that.

Re: Facebook’s 99%: Later employees may pay almost double the tax rate

#32

Is the article's bogeyman description of RSUs accurate at all? My understanding was that an RSU was equivalent an option priced at $0. The issue is the exercise date, not option-vs-RSU. Lots of public companies (Amazon, Google, etc give at RSUs). the issue, as jpdoctor mentions in this thread, is that you pay income tax on the value of stock (minus option price, if any) on the day you exercise, which is some time bet…

An RSU is not exactly equal to an option with a strike of $0, because you control the exercise date on an option. Not so on an RSU.

The taxable event with options is the date of exercise (or the 83b election), not the date of vesting. The option owner has control over the date of exercise, meaning they can delay exercise until after the vesting date.

An RSU, having a "strike price" of $0, "exercises" (and therefore is a taxable event) the instant it vests.

In both cases, the gain (the surplus of fair market value over exercise price) is ordinary income and taxed as such.

In both cases, the gains (or losses) after the initial taxable event are capital gains, and the rules are not as simple as for stocks, but basically, for employees with typical vesting, hold the shares for a year after exercise and these gains are long-term capital gains.

Re: Facebook’s 99%: Later employees may pay almost double the tax rate

#33
Just to spell it out - there are three (main) reasons why we would want capital gains taxed at a lower headline rate:

1) Capital gains are already taxed at the corporate level. People seem to intuitively understand how this works at the dividend level (dividends are paid with post tax dollars), but if you do the math, it works precisely the same with capital gains. (Please note: Tax incidence is complicated. Not all the corporate tax is borne by investors. Especially in small open economies like the UK, it's actually mostly paid by the workers via lower salaries.)

2) Speaking of which...capital gains are a tax on investment. Investment leads directly to increased labour productivity. Productivity leads directly to higher salaries. If we want employees to be paid a lot, we want, as a matter of public policy, to encourage investment. At this point the observant will pipe up "wait, are you saying it's good for the workers if we tax worker salaries more heavily than capital gains income?!" Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying, and it's supported by a rich body of empirical and theoretical backing. Heavy capital gains taxes are the precise policy you'd implement if you wanted to keep labour poor and unproductive. (If it helps, consider that investment is saving - it's an accounting identity - and the US has a big problem with low savings rates, which in turn means that they struggle to get enough investment without borrowing from overseas lenders. See the problem?)

3) Finally, investment income isn't just already taxed at the corporate level - it's also already taxed at the personal level too. Imagine two people, Spendthrift Sally and Frugal Frank. Both work at jobs making $200k/year, after tax. Sally spends all her income on consumption, and saves $0. Frank spends 75% of his income on consumption, and saves $50k/year by purchasing stocks which go up in value by 5% per year. After twenty years, Frank has spent $1m total on stocks now worth a cool $1.7m (clearly he follows the buy-and-hold school of investing). He is retiring, and wants to sell them all to re-invest in safer bonds. What tax rate do you think is fair? He made those investments with after-tax dollars. Do we now tax him again on the result of those investments? Don't we want people to behave like Frank, instead of Sally? And if we charge him 15% on his capital gains, he'd end up paying over $100k MORE total tax than Sally. Does Frank, who has scrimped and saved his whole life, really deserve to pay more taxes than Sally, who never saved a penny?

(The analysis becomes more complicated if Frank received the stock as compensation, instead of purchasing it with his salary. But keep in mind that he's still (1) taxed on that initial compensation and (2) is deferring consumption; a responsible choice which we as a society probably want to encourage.)

Re: Facebook’s 99%: Later employees may pay almost double the tax rate

#34
post #5

Can we please knock off the nonsense of this "Buffett secretary" talking point? Debbie Bosanke is estimated to make north of $200k per year, while Buffet is paying capital gains rates. Of course her rate is higher.

There's actually some serious questions about that. In interviews, Bosanke has claimed to be paying a 35.8% tax rate. She's been a little coy about her income, but in one interview she claimed to only make $60,000 a year. Anyone with even a passing familiarity with the US tax code will quickly understand that this is not possible . Seriously. So we know that at least some of what she's claimed in wrong. And since Bos…

That specific example may have no evidentiary value, but if you simply take it as being a symbolic name for the general phenomenon of millionaires/billionaires paying a lower tax rate than regular working folk, it's pretty obvious that this not only can happen, but that it's not all that uncommon. And in fact, nobody disputes that it happens. The only dispute is over whether it should.

Re: Facebook’s 99%: Later employees may pay almost double the tax rate

#35

Just to spell it out - there are three (main) reasons why we would want capital gains taxed at a lower headline rate: 1) Capital gains are already taxed at the corporate level. People seem to intuitively understand how this works at the dividend level (dividends are paid with post tax dollars), but if you do the math, it works precisely the same with capital gains. (Please note: Tax incidence is complicated. Not all…

The issue I have with framing it as spending vs investing is that the main issue with capital gains revolves around the super rich, not people making $200k a year.

Sure, a tax rate difference might influence Sally or Frank to spend or save, but Warren Buffet is not going to go on a billion dollar spending spree rather than invest his money if the capital gains rate goes up 5%.

I guess my question is what would the super rich do with their money other than invest it?

Re: Facebook’s 99%: Later employees may pay almost double the tax rate

#36
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's actually some serious questions about that. In interviews, Bosanke has claimed to be paying a 35.8% tax rate. She's been a little coy about her income, but in one interview she claimed to only make $60,000 a year. Anyone with even a passing familiarity with the US tax code will quickly understand that this is not possible . Seriously. So we know that at least some of what she's claimed in wrong. And since Bos…

That specific example may have no evidentiary value, but if you simply take it as being a symbolic name for the general phenomenon of millionaires/billionaires paying a lower tax rate than regular working folk, it's pretty obvious that this not only can happen, but that it's not all that uncommon. And in fact, nobody disputes that it happens. The only dispute is over whether it should .

Actually, it's very uncommon. Keep in mind, we have IRS data that shows the average rate paid by different groups, we know that most of the 1% is paying MUCH higher tax rates than the 99%. And should be make public policy based on the extremely rare edge cases, or the overwhelmingly common case?

Also, this debate really depends what you mean by "millionaires/billionaires". And "taxes". And "tax rates". And "working folk". Being a billionaire is a measure of wealth; your tax bracket is based on income in a single year. Are we talking about marginal rates or average rates? Federal income taxes? All federal taxes? All taxes? How do we impute the corporate income tax (knowing, as we do, that it is paid by both employees and investors)? How do we impute the corporate half of the payroll tax (ditto)? How should we handle cases where someone is in the "1%" for a single year due to the sale of a single large asset they've been working on for decades (family farm, small business, IPO, or the like)? Does it truly make sense that someone who makes $50k/year for 10 years, then sells his start-up for $100m should be in the same tax bracket in that 11th year as an investment banker who makes $100m/year every single year?

This is not an area with easy answers, and the tax code looks the way it does due to a long series of hard-fought struggles and difficult compromises. It's easy to look at Romney at say "he paid 14%", but it's less clear what rate is "right". Capital gains is fundamentally not normal income, and there's no reason it should be taxed at any given rate, much less whatever rate normal income would be taxed at. Some very socialist and egalitarian places have no capital gains tax at all. :)

Edit: My initial post had some silly errors of fact. Mike Ash was quite polite in pointing them out. :) Thanks.

Re: Facebook’s 99%: Later employees may pay almost double the tax rate

#37
post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Of course her rate is higher." I think the vast majority of people would expect a billionaire to pay a higher tax rate than an upper middle class person. I wouldn't call that nonsense.

Depends. The entire quip plays on peoples assumption they're both employees taking a standard wage and are "equal" besides the amounts. Unless I'm mistaken, Warren Buffet makes money from the ownership he holds, not as a salary, so the assumption people make ("of course he pays more", "what, he doesn't?!") is because they assume he's an employee and equal in everything but the amount, which isn't the case. He makes h…

>different types of money

That's where you're wrong. Different ways of getting it, but it is still USD.

Re: Facebook’s 99%: Later employees may pay almost double the tax rate

#38
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How are they not being taxed twice? A company (which has owners) pays income tax on their profits, so the company and therefore, owners, have less capital remaining. Then, if the owners want to cash out anything from the post-income-taxed margin, they'll have to pay capital gains as well.

That sounds like dividend taxes, not capital gains.

We're off the original topic now, but I've never understood why the US doesn't enact a dividend imputation scheme, which nicely solves the double taxation problem on dividend income by giving the recipient of a dividend a credit for the corporate tax paid on that dividend. Australia has such a system.

Re: Facebook’s 99%: Later employees may pay almost double the tax rate

#39

Just to spell it out - there are three (main) reasons why we would want capital gains taxed at a lower headline rate: 1) Capital gains are already taxed at the corporate level. People seem to intuitively understand how this works at the dividend level (dividends are paid with post tax dollars), but if you do the math, it works precisely the same with capital gains. (Please note: Tax incidence is complicated. Not all…

I think people are mostly concerned with the unfairness of the tax system.

If you put your time into something you're equally investing as if you put your capital into something, why if you put mere capital which is recoverable vs. time which is an unrecoverable good should you be taxed at a lower rate?

Employees invest their time into businesses and in return for their investment are paid a salary.

Every time money changes hands tax is paid. If I take my money and invest it into a latte then the coffee shop has to pay taxes on the money received from my investment. Worse yet, if I forget to drink my latte and it gets cold I can't deduct the depreciated value of the asset as a loss.

The only way in which the capital gains rate makes sense is if governments hold labour hostage (silly immigration policies) while capital is allowed to move freely.

I don't disagree with you that raising taxes is generally a bad idea, primarily because the government doesn't invest it wisely, but I do think that having differing rates for labour and capital is silly, especially when a person who invests time is guaranteed to lose their original investment, their time, whereas a capitalist merely has a chance of losing their investment.

Re: Facebook’s 99%: Later employees may pay almost double the tax rate

#40
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That specific example may have no evidentiary value, but if you simply take it as being a symbolic name for the general phenomenon of millionaires/billionaires paying a lower tax rate than regular working folk, it's pretty obvious that this not only can happen, but that it's not all that uncommon. And in fact, nobody disputes that it happens. The only dispute is over whether it should .

Actually, it's very uncommon. Keep in mind, we have IRS data that shows the average rate paid by different groups, we know that most of the 1% is paying MUCH higher tax rates than the 99%. And should be make public policy based on the extremely rare edge cases, or the overwhelmingly common case? Also, this debate really depends what you mean by "millionaires/billionaires". And "taxes". And "tax rates". And "working f…

Might be impossible, really?

Mitt Romney paid about 14% last year. I paid more than that, as did a whole lot of other common folk. That seems fairly conclusive that it's not impossible.

We can just look at income in a single year for the comparisons. Total wealth isn't really relevant to the question, aside from the fact that it's strongly correlated with yearly income.

Your other points are astute, but I'm just pointing out that this phenomenon does in fact happen, and isn't even disputed. Only whether and how to change things is in question.

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