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Chess, unlike war, is a game of perfect information

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Re: Chess, unlike war, is a game of perfect information

#31

I find it fascinating how Chess is, in a way, stateless. Other than whether some rules like castling are still valid, you don’t need to have played the previous moves to be able to play the next moves effectively. This got me thinking: is that common in games? If I take someone’s place at a Risk board, can I play well? But in both cases, there is perhaps still some state… At least if you’re playing a human. You might…

Yes this is common, it happens in all finite extensive games with perfect knowledge

> take someone’s place at a risk board

Not the case because Risk has unshared knowledge (the contents of your cards) and taking someone’s place makes it so the game doesn’t have perfect recall. You need shared knowledge and perfect recall, or complete knowledge (in which case recall doesn’t really matter) for a game to have a sub game perfect equilibirium - in simplified terms, for there to be an optimal strategy that applies equally well regardless of the game’s prior events.

That might be hard to reason about with Risk, but consider how information “leaks” by when players choose to use their cards or not and when they received the cards. Having a card for a long time but not using it suggests something else than having just received the card, which is why perfect recall is important. For a game to be “stateless” (ie have a one shot sub game perfect equilibrium), when cards were received would also have to not be important, but it is in Risk.

Re: Chess, unlike war, is a game of perfect information

#32
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The neural networks are for the evaluation at each node, traversing the game tree is done by using the NN to evaluate how good the position is on the tree’s nodes; how it traverses the tree is minimax with a-b pruning. In my original comment I didn’t mention pruning or other heuristics like estimating the value of intermediate states because it’s more of an optimization (a very important one!) that doesn’t affect the…

AlphaZero uses Monte Carlo Tree Search not MinMax. So it does use a neural network for the search. Modern Stockfish is the one that moved to having a neural network for position evaluation while keeping MinMax with AlphaBeta and heuristics for the search.

Oops! You are right, I got alphazero and stockfish mixed up.

Re: Chess, unlike war, is a game of perfect information

#33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The neural networks are for the evaluation at each node, traversing the game tree is done by using the NN to evaluate how good the position is on the tree’s nodes; how it traverses the tree is minimax with a-b pruning. In my original comment I didn’t mention pruning or other heuristics like estimating the value of intermediate states because it’s more of an optimization (a very important one!) that doesn’t affect the…

Ah, ok, so Minmax/Alpha-Beta to traverse the game tree and NN to evaluate, my mistake (apparently I am the one who should visit the link I provided :)

No, it was I that was too lazy to visit the link, or we both were. I got alphazero and stockfish’s implementations mixed up

Re: Chess, unlike war, is a game of perfect information

#36

I find it fascinating how Chess is, in a way, stateless. Other than whether some rules like castling are still valid, you don’t need to have played the previous moves to be able to play the next moves effectively. This got me thinking: is that common in games? If I take someone’s place at a Risk board, can I play well? But in both cases, there is perhaps still some state… At least if you’re playing a human. You might…

If you take into account player behavior dynamics, then I think path to a state becomes more important. I.e. "what my opponent thinks I'm trying to do" becomes important information to keep track of. Maybe not the case with chess, but definitely in other games.

This is called recall and it’s an important factor in “strategy profiles” for games with unshared information

Re: Chess, unlike war, is a game of perfect information

#37

I find it fascinating how Chess is, in a way, stateless. Other than whether some rules like castling are still valid, you don’t need to have played the previous moves to be able to play the next moves effectively. This got me thinking: is that common in games? If I take someone’s place at a Risk board, can I play well? But in both cases, there is perhaps still some state… At least if you’re playing a human. You might…

Yes this is common, it happens in all finite extensive games with perfect knowledge > take someone’s place at a risk board Not the case because Risk has unshared knowledge (the contents of your cards) and taking someone’s place makes it so the game doesn’t have perfect recall. You need shared knowledge and perfect recall, or complete knowledge (in which case recall doesn’t really matter) for a game to have a sub game…

I think technically you don’t even need to tell others how many cards you have (of course you have to comply with the hand limit). But it is weird because normally everyone sees when you get a card, so it is just a bit of bookkeeping to notice when someone gets behind a card.

More interesting I think is knowing when a player has been holding their cards for a while.

Re: Chess, unlike war, is a game of perfect information

#38
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it a particularly useful term here? It seems to mean you could theoretically play perfectly but in almost every real situation you can't, which is true of every human activity (including war). Information is hidden by complexity, but it's still utterly inaccessible.

You know the entire state of the chess board. You don’t know the entire state of your enemy forces. I’m both cases information could be said to be hidden by complexity, but in the case of war information is also just plain hidden. Edit: it would be similar to your example of war if you e.g. couldn’t see their pieces or something that would cause information asymmetry. This would make the game very different so clearl…

I suppose my problem is that the term 'perfect information' doesn't really communicate anything really interesting about chess. Whereas the equally valid term of art 'incomplete information' actually does, because it captures the fact that you lack knowledge of your opponent's strategy, but nobody ever uses that term. Chess is like navigating a maze or a minefield, it's like stumbling into an ambush. It's much more like war than tic-tac-toe.

Re: Chess, unlike war, is a game of perfect information

#39
There's one match in which it was not a game of perfect information, as Garry Kasparov says in "Deep Thinking: Where Machine Intelligence Ends and Human Creativity Begins":

If you consider "perfect information" to include "knowledge of your opponent's previous games" (that's a big IF) then he did not have it against Deep Blue. IBM refused to give him any insight into what he was up against.

Re: Chess, unlike war, is a game of perfect information

#40

Chess belongs to a class of games that are particularly interesting to study: it is a finite extensive form game which basically means the game can be modeled as a tree and requires only shared knowledge among participants, all the participants have complete shared knowledge, it’s sequential, has perfect recall (nothing prevents looking backwards at the game state), and a simple payoff function (you win if you checkm…

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