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What you give up by moving into engineering management

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Re: What you give up by moving into engineering management

#31

Post by badpun »

onion2k wrote: post #20
OldGuyInTheClub wrote: post #8

I quit managing because I couldn't stomach the language managers are required to speak. The cliches, the obfuscation, the outright lying when relaying the c__p coming from above, the list goes on.

The best managers I've worked with don't do much of that stuff. They do use the cliches and obfuscation, but only upwards . They talk to the team in the team's language. As for the crap coming down from the leaders, if anything, the best quality in a manager is understanding what is crap and what's actually useful, and deflecting the crap stuff before it gets anywhere.

> The best managers I've worked with don't do much of that stuff. They do use the cliches and obfuscation, but only upwards. They talk to the team in the team's language.

It's not a big consolation because, esp. in larger organizations, managers spend most time speaking to other managers, not to their team.

Re: What you give up by moving into engineering management

#32

Post by domh »

This pretty much summarises my experience, especially the fragmented days and the lack of short feedback cycles. As someone who TDDs as much as I can, the dopamine rush of seeing a piece of code go from nothing to complete is something I found tough to replace in management.

I thoroughly enjoyed the mentorship and relationship building aspects though and it is really great to get to know people on a deeper level. I switched back to being an IC about a year ago, and I do miss the 1:1s with the team.

I moved back to being an IC due to the sheer amount of other things going on in my life (moving countries, having a kid etc). I needed the comfort of doing something I felt deeply familiar with. Definitely like the idea of swinging back to management at some point in the future though.

Re: What you give up by moving into engineering management

#33

Post by 5350-uiop-1130 »

abtinf wrote: post #19

The biggest thing most managers give up is their mind. You start using corporate jargon. You become more authoritarian. You embrace careerism (a term I invented to describe people who erroneously conflate rising in corporate rank with happiness). You quickly learn that no one understands anything about the people or the business--and that all decisions are made by gut, cherry picked data, and story-telling. Suddenly,…

> You must be willing to say "I don't know"

does not sound like any manager i ever knew

Re: What you give up by moving into engineering management

#34

Post by abtinf »

badpun wrote: post #30
abtinf wrote: post #19

The biggest thing most managers give up is their mind. You start using corporate jargon. You become more authoritarian. You embrace careerism (a term I invented to describe people who erroneously conflate rising in corporate rank with happiness). You quickly learn that no one understands anything about the people or the business--and that all decisions are made by gut, cherry picked data, and story-telling. Suddenly,…

> Your only job as a manager is to protect and develop the team under you. That sounds like the philosophy of a tumor. Clearly, a manager has to care about other things as well, such as - how can my team contribute to the business in the most valuable way?

A manager should have a view about the business, and they must work to give their team the evidence and method of thinking to grasp why that view is correct. Only then will the team properly focus on the goal and execute effectively. This is part of developing the team.

"If you want to build a ship, don’t drum up the men to gather wood, divide the work, and give orders. Instead, teach them to yearn for the vast and endless sea." -Antoine de Saint-Exupery

Re: What you give up by moving into engineering management

#35

Post by fortissimohn »

5350-uiop-1130 wrote: post #33
abtinf wrote: post #19

The biggest thing most managers give up is their mind. You start using corporate jargon. You become more authoritarian. You embrace careerism (a term I invented to describe people who erroneously conflate rising in corporate rank with happiness). You quickly learn that no one understands anything about the people or the business--and that all decisions are made by gut, cherry picked data, and story-telling. Suddenly,…

> You must be willing to say "I don't know" does not sound like any manager i ever knew

It may sound different, such as "That's a great question"

Re: What you give up by moving into engineering management

#36

Post by badpun »

abtinf wrote: post #34
badpun wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Your only job as a manager is to protect and develop the team under you. That sounds like the philosophy of a tumor. Clearly, a manager has to care about other things as well, such as - how can my team contribute to the business in the most valuable way?

A manager should have a view about the business, and they must work to give their team the evidence and method of thinking to grasp why that view is correct. Only then will the team properly focus on the goal and execute effectively. This is part of developing the team. "If you want to build a ship, don’t drum up the men to gather wood, divide the work, and give orders. Instead, teach them to yearn for the vast and e…

From what I've seen, the biggest role of a manager is interfacing with other parts of the business (i.e. other managers) and actually coming up with what the team should be working on, and how it will fit with what other parts of the business (i.e. teams managed by the other managers) are working on. This is the hard part - it's so easy to just go and build the wrong thing for a couple of years. Managing the internals and the actual work of the team are, in comparison, relatively straightforward part of the job.

Re: What you give up by moving into engineering management

#37

Post by simonw »

poulsbohemian wrote: post #23
simonw wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've seen Charity Majors call this the "pendulum" model, where you swing back and forth from IC to management multiple times during your career. I really like that: in my experience, ICs who have been managers make better ICs and vice-versa. https://charity.wtf/2017/05/11/the-engineer-manager-pendulum...

I found this really hard in my career though - you move into an IC role and then the assumption is you won't be happy in a management role ever again. You move into a management role and somehow there's an assumption that you have been lobotomized and know nothing about the hands-on work any longer. It's not fair, but it can really create complications as you attempt to move your career into new directions or attempt…

I've been trying to counter that effect by saying "have you heard about the pendulum model?" and showing that article to as many people in influential positions as possible.

Re: What you give up by moving into engineering management

#38

Post by abtinf »

badpun wrote: post #36
abtinf wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A manager should have a view about the business, and they must work to give their team the evidence and method of thinking to grasp why that view is correct. Only then will the team properly focus on the goal and execute effectively. This is part of developing the team. "If you want to build a ship, don’t drum up the men to gather wood, divide the work, and give orders. Instead, teach them to yearn for the vast and e…

From what I've seen, the biggest role of a manager is interfacing with other parts of the business (i.e. other managers) and actually coming up with what the team should be working on, and how it will fit with what other parts of the business (i.e. teams managed by the other managers) are working on. This is the hard part - it's so easy to just go and build the wrong thing for a couple of years. Managing the internal…

FWIW, I've been told I'm an exceptionally effective cross-functional communicator and that I outperform given my ability leverage my resources to recruit and align support for initiatives across orgs.

Imagine how wealthy our society would be if all the claims of by all managers about management success were actually true.

So far as I can tell, nearly all inter-management communication is useless and has, at best, zero impact. Only at the extreme margins or with select relationships does anything useful result. Like you find the IC SME who actually understand the target market, who is willing to sit with your team to set a vision.

Otherwise, nearly all managers you interact with are careerist.

Re: What you give up by moving into engineering management

#40

Post by 5350-uiop-1130 »

fortissimohn wrote: post #35
5350-uiop-1130 wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You must be willing to say "I don't know" does not sound like any manager i ever knew

It may sound different, such as "That's a great question"

i haven't had the good luck to work with enlightened or humble people
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