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Thoughts on Svelte

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Re: Thoughts on Svelte

#31

Post by dimmke »

CharlieDigital wrote: post #2

Really interesting observation about the context of React being JS and the context of Svelte (and Vue, similarly) being HTML. Makes so much sense once it's pointed out.

This is really why I love Svelte so much. To me, the way components are formatted is how the HTML spec should have evolved over the last 10 years. It's absurd to me that HTML is still "documents" with a head and body wrapped inside an tag.

This is a good pattern that builds on the existing foundational technologies of the web but acknowledges that how we build websites (and apps) has changed quite a bit.

Re: Thoughts on Svelte

#32

Post by seanwilson »

What's a good frontend setup right now if you want strong static typing? I know Vue 3 supports TypeScript for example but it doesn't look like that's their core audience?

I don't get the appeal of frameworks introducing template tags like `{#if showFoo}` vs JSX personally. You have the learn new syntax for things you already know how to do in JavaScript but with less expressibility, and JSX can at least be type checked so you don't have runtime problems like an `` sneaking a string in a number field.

Re: Thoughts on Svelte

#33

Post by TechBro8615 »

seanwilson wrote: post #32

What's a good frontend setup right now if you want strong static typing? I know Vue 3 supports TypeScript for example but it doesn't look like that's their core audience? I don't get the appeal of frameworks introducing template tags like `{#if showFoo}` vs JSX personally. You have the learn new syntax for things you already know how to do in JavaScript but with less expressibility, and JSX can at least be type check…

React has very good support for TypeScript at this point. Not sure about the other frameworks.

Re: Thoughts on Svelte

#34

Post by rsp1984 »

Mostly agree with the article but cringed a bit when I read this:

> This subtlety led to more than one case where I didn't understand why a component didn't update. ... In the end I found it was difficult to determine reliably when to reach for the $ label. I'd use it in one scenario and it seemed to work like I expect, then throw it at another scenario and it didn't work like I expect.

OK, that's like you're used to using an old donkey for transport and then someone hands you a brand new car and you start complaining about it not having seat heaters.

The $-based reactiveness of Svelte is great! Just don't expect that every possible side case is covered 100%. Same as with just about any other technology.

Re: Thoughts on Svelte

#35

Post by [deleted] »

vaughan wrote: post #29
h4ch1 wrote: post #12

I've been building a medium-scale web application that works as a configurator for 3D models (swapping objects/changing materials) and parsing/storing/syncing those configurations in real-time along with images, and a lot of metadata that needs real-time updates. To be honest, it's a breeze until it's not, my single file gets very long, lots of declarations, $: reactive = another reactive variable, derived stores, th…

I wonder if this is a visualization problem. Imagine if you could see the dependency graph visually.

[deleted]

Re: Thoughts on Svelte

#36

Post by outofpaper »

rsp1984 wrote: post #34

Mostly agree with the article but cringed a bit when I read this: > This subtlety led to more than one case where I didn't understand why a component didn't update. ... In the end I found it was difficult to determine reliably when to reach for the $ label. I'd use it in one scenario and it seemed to work like I expect, then throw it at another scenario and it didn't work like I expect. OK, that's like you're used to…

Well ya, your old donkey was essentially a cozy self driving seat that refueled itself by mowing your grass. Not having the heated seats at the same time as having to adjust to all the changes can be hard, to matter how nice the car/framework is.

Re: Thoughts on Svelte

#37

Post by sergioisidoro »

shanehoban wrote: post #6

I work with React (NextJS) and from working on things in Vue, and Nuxt - the one thing I absolutely hate about React is state management. If you have never used Pinia[0] (Vuex) with Vue, it's just so, so, so much easier. I'm using Zustand[1] with React as it is as similar as I can find to Pinia, but the whole hook system is just painful to work with... OK rant over. I haven't built anything substantial with Svelte, b…

I have used MobX state tree (MST) with react, and a lot of the concepts are the same with Pinia. Pinia still looks better, I totally agree here.

Re: Thoughts on Svelte

#38

Post by iainmerrick »

TechBro8615 wrote: post #33
seanwilson wrote: post #32

What's a good frontend setup right now if you want strong static typing? I know Vue 3 supports TypeScript for example but it doesn't look like that's their core audience? I don't get the appeal of frameworks introducing template tags like `{#if showFoo}` vs JSX personally. You have the learn new syntax for things you already know how to do in JavaScript but with less expressibility, and JSX can at least be type check…

React has very good support for TypeScript at this point. Not sure about the other frameworks.

Solid does too.

Re: Thoughts on Svelte

#39

Post by dimmke »

TechBro8615 wrote: post #10
lionls wrote: post #4

I share your view that Svelte is a great framework for small projects. It is also really useful if you want to build small standalone javascript widgets. I've used it at work to build a fast video testimonial slider for Shopify [1]. I really liked the component format as we could quickly integrate our code in the existing HTML layout. The Svelte built-in store has also been useful for us to manage the current state o…

What makes something good for small projects? Does that mean it's not good for big projects? What's the difference between big and small projects that makes Svelte good for one and bad for the other?

Svelte doesn't use a virtual DOM and when it compiles, it only targets what you are specifically using it for.

The thing with Svelte is that for a big project (like an SPA) you're going to end up using SvelteKit, because that's where all the development focus is for things like routing etc... and SvelteKit isn't nearly as settled. As in, there aren't developed "patterns" for doing a lot of things yet so it's a lot of trailblazing. There's also some features that are missing and on the roadmap but SvelteKit just hit 1.0 in December (these are usually more obscure things but you will still likely encounter them if you're building something of moderate complexity.)

I still think overall it would be fine to use for a big project, but a year from now I think it will be a much easier choice. Something that is happening right now is a lot of big players in the wider JS ecosystem are transforming from being React specific to framework agnostic:

- NextJS -> Auth.js: https://twitter.com/balazsorban44/status/1603082914362986496

- React Table / React Query -> TanStack Table, TanStack Query: https://tanstack.com/

This has all happened in the last few months. So it's still new, and they're still improving as they move away from being React specific. People rely on those projects. As more move in that direction I think it will become easier and easier.

Re: Thoughts on Svelte

#40

Post by cooperadymas »

fenomas wrote: post #26

I switched my game's UI from Vue2 to Svelte maybe a year ago, and I agree with almost all of the article. One thing I think the author overlooks: the appeal of Svelte's built-in animations and transitions is that they work correctly when the element's lifecycle is being managed by Svelte. E.g. with code like this: {#if showFoo} Foo! {/if} When `showFoo` changes to false, Svelte will first play a flyout transition and…

Missed opportunity...

    {#if showFall}
       Fools! 
    {/if}
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