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You can't tell people anything (2004)

habitatchronicles.com

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Re: You can't tell people anything (2004)

#31

This article resonates with me. I think it may also explain why some very smart people are not appreciated; they say things which are far too nuanced for most people to understand; others often won't understand the depth of the argument being made. Most people assume that because everyone is at a similar rank and salary range within a company (or in the industry), they are all operating at the same level and communic…

I think you are correct, but this just doesn't feel right, I can't quite put my finger on why.

It's almost like people categorically reject the possibility of greater levels of nuance existing. If they didn't they'd be looking for it carefully, because that is always where deeper insight comes in, right?

If you look at, for example, popular news and political discourse- it is lacking nuance to the point where it's meaningless nonsense, which also lacking any humility, insight, or open-ness to the possibility that more nuance may be possible.

Re: You can't tell people anything (2004)

#32

> When people ask me about my life’s ambitions, I often joke that my goal is to become independently wealthy so that I can afford to get some work done. Mainly that’s about being able to do things without having to explain them first, so that the finished product can be the explanation. I think this will be a major labor saving improvement. Agreed. The worst part is when they nod and pretend they got it and then that…

I don't get this. Did you not attempt to verify something that important was actually understood?

I bet he did. I bet they confirmed they had understood.

Life will slap you with this lesson time and time again.

Re: You can't tell people anything (2004)

#33
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't get this. Did you not attempt to verify something that important was actually understood?

I bet he did. I bet they confirmed they had understood. Life will slap you with this lesson time and time again.

See also the documentary scenes in Guardians of the Galaxy 2 with Groot and the dangerous red button that will kill everyone.

It's not funny because it's absurd, it's funny because it's almost plausible.

Re: You can't tell people anything (2004)

#34

> When people ask me about my life’s ambitions, I often joke that my goal is to become independently wealthy so that I can afford to get some work done. Mainly that’s about being able to do things without having to explain them first, so that the finished product can be the explanation. I think this will be a major labor saving improvement. Agreed. The worst part is when they nod and pretend they got it and then that…

I don't get this. Did you not attempt to verify something that important was actually understood?

That presumes that communication is just about people understanding the thing you are trying to say, rather than the transfer of thoughts, ideas, and opinions.

Put another way: the only thing that you can verify when communicating that the sky is on fire is that the other party knows you think the sky is on fire. Whether or not they think the sky is on fire, or whether they think you're blowing hot air, is pretty inscrutable. If they don't agree with you, they're still likely to not show it because you (to them) are a neurotic hothead who they don't want to upset.

The only truth in what you manage to communicate to people is the effect it has on how they act. In other words - they can't tell you anything! They can only show you.

Re: You can't tell people anything (2004)

#35

This article resonates with me. I think it may also explain why some very smart people are not appreciated; they say things which are far too nuanced for most people to understand; others often won't understand the depth of the argument being made. Most people assume that because everyone is at a similar rank and salary range within a company (or in the industry), they are all operating at the same level and communic…

> I think it may also explain why some very smart people are not appreciated; they say things which are far too nuanced for most people to understand; others often won't understand the depth of the argument being made.

Smart people are often wrong; this has little to do with intelligence. The problem is that most people lack vision and can’t see beyond their narrow reality tunnels. It takes extraordinary minds (not necessarily smart ones) to be able to see beyond tomorrow and take what might seem like stupid risks to get there. Very smart people will often be risk averse and stay the course.

Re: You can't tell people anything (2004)

#36
This puts to clear words a nagging sensation I've had my whole life, that I (also) tried to tell other people but couldn't. Talking just doesn't work as well as people think it does. It seems so obvious once you start noticing, but almost nobody notices this. People are either just repeating memes each other basically already know, or else are talking past each other.

When I overhear people having a conversation, almost always, I can see that the two people aren't really understanding each other, and neither of them realize it. Unless the content is basically emotion only, with no real new information. If I try to be aware of this dynamic when listening to people, it frustrates them... without me jumping to (probably wrong) conclusions and pretending to understand, it seems like I have some kind of communications disability and/or obnoxious personality, where I am drawing out the explanation way more than they expected to be necessary. The social norm is to think or at least act like you understand immediately when you really don't.

I often get the impression, when trying to explain totally new ideas to people, that they just assign it to the nearest known trope/meme, and assume it's that, and are unable to see how it's different. Even when it's really really different!

As an academic scientist this is a HUGE problem. All of my really new ideas, I cannot communicate to anyone, and get funding for them. Only the obvious/stupid things, the things they expect, get understood and funded. I then do my real work, the stuff I later get tons of praise for, "in my spare time." Like the author, I too wish I was independently wealthy, so I could actually do my job!

I like this perspective because it puts the burden back on me, and gives me something to act on. How can I put them into this experience, so they really get it?

Re: You can't tell people anything (2004)

#37
This is just part #1 of natural science & constructionist learning. You can't only not tell people thing, you can't expect them to learn until they can engage their brain & monkey around & see for themselves. They have to have a lived experience, not just of it working & doing the thing, but also need to try & see other random hijinx.

Humanity only ever works, only becomes human, when we are allowed the agency of the experimenter. When we can find out.

This has slowly lead me towards detesting applications. The idea of interface is almost always a curtain, a veil, that obfuscates & hides some pretty graspable real truths. Interface & apps often take something real & make it virtual, impervious, symbic, in a decoupled lying way. We are complicit all too often in raising a worse, in-natural science helpless version of humanity. We say it helps users to get tasks done. But it's all fractured narrow experiences, something small distilled out where few lessons port. It masks, without any chance to begin to improve beyond, to see like a human ought to be able to.

Re: You can't tell people anything (2004)

#39
This article really frustrated me the last time it was posted, but now I think I have a clear enough idea why to put it into words.

You absolutely can tell people things! But to tell someone something, you need to do three things:

  - Establish enough shared context that they can understand you
  - Speak about something they actually care about (or convince them to care)
  - Use a format that works for what you're trying to communicate
I've told people about technical topics in conversation or presentation plenty of times. I don't really understand how you can be an engineer and not tell people things.

The article is frustrating because it puts the blame onto the listener. But that's not how communication works! You don't have the right to just "tell people things" - you have to put in the work to be understood and to show people it's worth their time to pay attention. Communicating well is part of the job.

The author does this even in this piece. He says: "For example, with just a few magic HTML tags we could stick avatars on a web page — pretty much any web page. For months Randy kept getting up at management meetings and saying, “We’ll be able to put avatars on web pages. Start thinking about what you might do with that.”

Well yeah - if someone stood up in a management meeting and told me to think about what I might do with an avatar, my first thought would be "What's an avatar" and my second thought would be "I'm already busy with other things". He hasn't said what an avatar is or why anyone should care about them. So people pay no attention.

Then the demo shows what an avatar is and lets people see immediately how it might be useful, in a format that works regardless of the skill of the communicator. And so of course now they understand!

And maybe the thing you're trying to communicate is so novel that you can't establish context or convince people to care without showing them a demo. But at least take the time to understand why you can't tell people about it.

Re: You can't tell people anything (2004)

#40
I had a coworker who made a sport of telling people things. Once he'd flipped the bozo bit on someone, he took a certain sardonic delight in predicting outcomes that they would promptly reject... and then face-plant directly into.

Sort of like the Oracle in the Matrix, only cynical, or perhaps more like Willy Wonka. "I wouldn't do that, I really wouldn't."

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