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Linux maintainer rejects patches from sanctioned Russian Baikal Electronics

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Re: Linux maintainer rejects patches from sanctioned Russian Baikal Electronics

#31

Post by anonymouskimmer »

arp242 wrote: post #27
sph wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Should Linux also accept North-Korean patches for their ICBMs in mainline? While NK is probably not looking to merge their `char/icbm` driver to the mainline tree, what about the NK military fixing a nasty bug in the memory allocator? Should the patch be rejected even if it improves a non-military subsystem, just because of who wrote it? It's just food-for-thought, personally I do not care one way or the other. As…

Ignoring trust issues (NK inserting a backdoor), I'd say clean bugfixes should probably be accepted. My main point was to nuance the absolutist "code and science should be separate". I don't know enough about this code to make a judgement one way or the other: as I understand the commit message it's a cleanup as a prelude to GMAC and X-GMAC SoC support. Maybe the code is badly in need of some cleanup, or maybe it's e…

> Ignoring trust issues (NK inserting a backdoor)

For another option, is it possible that patching a legitimate bug could open up a line of attack in an otherwise unrelated piece of code that the bug was somehow blocking? If it is, even legitimate, verified bug fixes, or even bug reports, from non-trusted sources, should be carefully vetted.

Re: Linux maintainer rejects patches from sanctioned Russian Baikal Electronics

#33

Post by jcranmer »

pphysch wrote: post #18
arp242 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know who the "we" is; you have to ask the person who sent that message. Presumably it's the people responsible for that code. I explicitly mentioned IBM's involvement in the holocaust. But that's a historical event; not an on-going one. You can trace the genealogy of almost everyone an everything to something evil if you go back far enough. I think comparing the Russian and US military is a false equivalence.…

Russia has invaded 2 sovereign countries since 2000; USA has invaded at least 4. That's roughly the same order.

If you're going to count the US roles in interventions in Libya and Syria as "invading a sovereign country," it is only fair that you apply the same logic to Russia. This means you have to at least include Russian intervention in the Syrian civil war--which is larger than the US role in Libya or Syria, natch--and arguably it is fair to include interventions in which Wagner is a major player, which includes Libya, Mali, and the Central African Republic.

Re: Linux maintainer rejects patches from sanctioned Russian Baikal Electronics

#34

Post by pajko »

pwdisswordfishc wrote: post #8
balozi wrote: post #3

> We don't feel comfortable accepting patches from or relating to hardware produced by your organization. Is the discomfort based on technical, or legal, or moral/political reasoning?

Yes.

It's not that simple. A single person is not required to agree with what their country is doing, and probably can do little. Unless something can be attached to their name, like a tweet saying "all ukrainians shall die" or spreading modern russian ideology, it's wrong to punish. It's prejudice, it's discrimination, no different than not letting somebody into a restaurant just because of their race. Were all germans guilty because of Hitler?

Re: Linux maintainer rejects patches from sanctioned Russian Baikal Electronics

#35

Post by arp242 »

vfclists wrote: post #26
arp242 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know who the "we" is; you have to ask the person who sent that message. Presumably it's the people responsible for that code. I explicitly mentioned IBM's involvement in the holocaust. But that's a historical event; not an on-going one. You can trace the genealogy of almost everyone an everything to something evil if you go back far enough. I think comparing the Russian and US military is a false equivalence.…

> I think comparing the Russian and US military is a false equivalence. Do I think the US is innocent? No. But it's just not on the same order. Seriously? Setting aside those that the US was directly involved in such as Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan, how about the war between and Iraq and Iran that the US urged Saddam Hussein on which resulted in about 500,000 dead, for starters? In those days Saddam was the bestie o…

> Sadly the war on Ukraine is lasting much longer because Ukraine has the support of the US, until the US decides that China warrants more attention.

... Sadly? I guess the Ukrainians should just bow over and welcome their new Russian overlords? Or what are you suggesting here?

I'm not going to comment on every single example, but in many there is significantly more nuance to most of them as I've explained in some other comments already. Does that mean it's "good"? Not necessarily, but it does mean it's just not the same as a completely unwarranted baseless invasion. The specifics of the situation DO matter and you can't just tally military interventions like that.

Re: Linux maintainer rejects patches from sanctioned Russian Baikal Electronics

#36

Post by anonymouskimmer »

pphysch wrote: post #19
pvaldes wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not about overthrowing anything. Is about damage control. Maybe is safer for Linux to refuse to enter in this viper pit of sanctions and politics until waters calm down a little. Specially in the same day that a team of covered Russian agents were caught in Poland planning several boycotts in NATO territory. The mistrust is not totally unreasonable at this moment. If I understand correctly, the Russian compan…

If it's about real sanctions, they should say so. They don't even have to be that specific. Because right now it looks like a Polish/EE guy using geopolitical events as an excuse to bully his national enemies on the internet. It's a politically-correct "f__k off and never come back". Totally unprofessional.

It doesn't even say "never come back", it says for the time being don't contribute, because of the organization you belong to, not because of who you are personally.

And Jakub is saying that "we don't feel comfortable". Discomfort can be for multiple reasons, not all of which may be known to the person (or given the "we", possibly people) feeling uncomfortable.

Asserting boundaries is rarely bullying. And I personally don't think this message, in the context we have here, rises past the level of asserting boundaries to bullying. Maintaining boundaries is a good thing that everyone has to learn to do, and have the fortitude to do. It's not easy.

Re: Linux maintainer rejects patches from sanctioned Russian Baikal Electronics

#37

Post by anonymouskimmer »

arp242 wrote: post #12
vfclists wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't any of the major US companies involved with Linux have huge contracts with the DoD? Didn't IBM the current owner of Redhat supply equipment to the Nazis which was used to document and track Jews? By the way who are the "We" in "We don't feel comfortable accepting patches from or relating to hardware produced by your organization."?

I don't know who the "we" is; you have to ask the person who sent that message. Presumably it's the people responsible for that code. I explicitly mentioned IBM's involvement in the holocaust. But that's a historical event; not an on-going one. You can trace the genealogy of almost everyone an everything to something evil if you go back far enough. I think comparing the Russian and US military is a false equivalence.…

> You can trace the genealogy of almost everyone an everything to something evil if you go back far enough.

When watching "Finding Your Roots" and other genealogy shows I always think when the interviewer asks the person how they feel about the misdeeds of an ancestor: We are all descended from rapists, murderers, and cannibals.

And as you imply, we've all done bad in our past. That's part of the experience of learning. It's what we do now that matters. A moment of silence for everyone's first pet.

Re: Linux maintainer rejects patches from sanctioned Russian Baikal Electronics

#38

Post by arp242 »

anonymouskimmer wrote: post #31
arp242 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ignoring trust issues (NK inserting a backdoor), I'd say clean bugfixes should probably be accepted. My main point was to nuance the absolutist "code and science should be separate". I don't know enough about this code to make a judgement one way or the other: as I understand the commit message it's a cleanup as a prelude to GMAC and X-GMAC SoC support. Maybe the code is badly in need of some cleanup, or maybe it's e…

> Ignoring trust issues (NK inserting a backdoor) For another option, is it possible that patching a legitimate bug could open up a line of attack in an otherwise unrelated piece of code that the bug was somehow blocking? If it is, even legitimate, verified bug fixes, or even bug reports, from non-trusted sources, should be carefully vetted.

They did end up banning all of the University of Minnesota over trust issues. Everything should be carefully vetted, sure, but it's always possible something gets missed; a good backdoor is indistinguishable from a bug, and those definitely end up getting merged. Any merge is a "risk", so to speak. It's a matter of risk management: a patch from Greg Kroah-Hartman is very unlikely to contain an intentional backdoor and a patch from Kim Jong-un is more likely to contain one, and with lots of shades in-between those two extremes.

Re: Linux maintainer rejects patches from sanctioned Russian Baikal Electronics

#39

Post by anonymouskimmer »

vfclists wrote: post #26
arp242 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know who the "we" is; you have to ask the person who sent that message. Presumably it's the people responsible for that code. I explicitly mentioned IBM's involvement in the holocaust. But that's a historical event; not an on-going one. You can trace the genealogy of almost everyone an everything to something evil if you go back far enough. I think comparing the Russian and US military is a false equivalence.…

> I think comparing the Russian and US military is a false equivalence. Do I think the US is innocent? No. But it's just not on the same order. Seriously? Setting aside those that the US was directly involved in such as Vietnam, Iraq and Afghanistan, how about the war between and Iraq and Iran that the US urged Saddam Hussein on which resulted in about 500,000 dead, for starters? In those days Saddam was the bestie o…

And the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact led to most of the 60 million dead in WW2, including 25 million Russians.

I want to stop this thread because they always end up in stupid comparisons.

This is about a fricking code submit.

Re: Linux maintainer rejects patches from sanctioned Russian Baikal Electronics

#40

Post by yladiz »

pajko wrote: post #34
pwdisswordfishc wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes.

It's not that simple. A single person is not required to agree with what their country is doing, and probably can do little. Unless something can be attached to their name, like a tweet saying "all ukrainians shall die" or spreading modern russian ideology, it's wrong to punish. It's prejudice, it's discrimination, no different than not letting somebody into a restaurant just because of their race. Were all germans g…

Sorry, but I can't believe you've just compared discrimination against someone going into a restaurant due to their race to Hitler/the Holocaust. Like, c'mon.

What's that rule that every argument on the Internet eventually devolves into something about the Holocaust or Hitler or something like that?

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