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Epic Games to pay $245M for tricking users into making unwanted charges

ftc.gov

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Re: Epic Games to pay $245M for tricking users into making unwanted charges

#31

Post by bluetidepro »

JohnFen wrote: post #27
bluetidepro wrote: post #5

> Additionally, the order bars Epic from blocking consumers from accessing their accounts for disputing unauthorized charges. This could be bigger than people realize. This is very common in many tech companies like Uber/Doordash/Sony/etc. where if you do a chargeback, you often get blacklisted on their service. It would be amazing if this starts to end this practice, and you can actually have authority to get your m…

> if you do a chargeback, you often get blacklisted on their service. Although, to be honest, if a problem has deteriorated to the point where I need to do a chargeback, I've already written off doing any further business with that company anyway.

Yes and no. Sometimes it's more grey than that in services like Uber or Doordash where it could be at the fault of one bad apple and not the company at a whole. Or as others said, sometimes you are at the mercy of losing a massive library of content if you get blacklisted like on Steam or Amazon, for example.

Re: Epic Games to pay $245M for tricking users into making unwanted charges

#32

Post by dragonwriter »

Ekaros wrote: post #26
bluetidepro wrote: post #5

> Additionally, the order bars Epic from blocking consumers from accessing their accounts for disputing unauthorized charges. This could be bigger than people realize. This is very common in many tech companies like Uber/Doordash/Sony/etc. where if you do a chargeback, you often get blacklisted on their service. It would be amazing if this starts to end this practice, and you can actually have authority to get your m…

I think it is reasonable. On other side the companies should then be able to sue you and you need to prove that charge was fraudulent. If you fail, you will carry full costs of both sides. Thus cutting down the fraud by chargebacks.

> On other side the companies should then be able to sue you

Companies can sue you for false, damaging claims you make, or failure to complete your end of a contractual arrangement.

> and you need to prove that charge was fraudulent

Well, no, the initial burden of proof should remain on the entity seeking a remedy, but civil standard of proof (preponderance of the evidence) means that that initial burden is not hard to meet.

Re: Epic Games to pay $245M for tricking users into making unwanted charges

#33

Post by capableweb »

BiteCode_dev wrote: post #20
degenerate wrote: post #9

> In Spring 2018, Epic executives and managers discussed adding a confirm purchase button to prevent accidental purchases. Though employees were concerned that “it is a bit of a dark UX pattern to not have confirmation on ‘destructive’ actions,” Epic feared that adding a confirmation button would add “friction,” “result in a decent number of people second guessing their purchase,” and reduce the number of “impulse pu…

And despite Epic having great games, this is why I have not installed it or paid for any of their product so far. Also why steam is still the leader despite having a terrible UI: they have been very good to their customers.

> Also why steam is still the leader despite having a terrible UI: they have been very good to their customers.

Steams core customer is the game developers/publishers, who they take a ~30% (last time I checked) cut from the profits from.

The people who buy games are simply users of Steam, and Steam has to treat them well, otherwise their actual customers (developers/publishers) won't get as much profits, and indirectly Steam.

Re: Epic Games to pay $245M for tricking users into making unwanted charges

#34

Post by bluetidepro »

hn_throwaway_99 wrote: post #12
bluetidepro wrote: post #5

> Additionally, the order bars Epic from blocking consumers from accessing their accounts for disputing unauthorized charges. This could be bigger than people realize. This is very common in many tech companies like Uber/Doordash/Sony/etc. where if you do a chargeback, you often get blacklisted on their service. It would be amazing if this starts to end this practice, and you can actually have authority to get your m…

This order doesn't broadly apply beyond Epic. It seems to me that they're blocking Epic from locking accounts specifically because of the dark patterns they used to get users to accidentally spend money. I doubt this would be applied to other companies unless they also found those companies used confusing UIs to get people to pay. Which is still good news nonetheless, as the main issue for me is all these dark patter…

You could be right, but at least it start to set some sort of tone to this practice, even if it's not the final nail in the coffin for ending it.

Re: Epic Games to pay $245M for tricking users into making unwanted charges

#35

Post by hunter2_ »

paulmd wrote: post #25
bluetidepro wrote: post #5

> Additionally, the order bars Epic from blocking consumers from accessing their accounts for disputing unauthorized charges. This could be bigger than people realize. This is very common in many tech companies like Uber/Doordash/Sony/etc. where if you do a chargeback, you often get blacklisted on their service. It would be amazing if this starts to end this practice, and you can actually have authority to get your m…

Came here to say this too. This just needs to be the rule generally. Steam and Amazon do the same thing - get hacked and get charged for some items, if you dispute the Steam charge you lose your $5000 account, that's not a fair playing field and effectively negates the protection offered by credit card networks. Hopefully steam resolves it, that's always the first line of defense, but if they don't, you still can't c…

> music I've purchased

They really ought to stop using "buy"/"purchase" metaphorically to mean something more like "one time fee for an indefinite lease that ends upon account termination." If they simply used a word better suited to the reality of the situation, then it wouldn't be a surprise that the account (which is a privilege, not a right) is a dependency of using what you paid for. Maybe something like "micro-upgrade [my account]."

Obviously eliminating that dependency is even better, but baby steps.

Re: Epic Games to pay $245M for tricking users into making unwanted charges

#36

Post by JohnFen »

my_usernam3 wrote: post #23
PurpleRamen wrote: post #6

That's the second time now I read about Epic Games paying a fine for doing something obviously shady and illegal. I slowly get the impression that Epic Games might be a bit more scammy than your average company.

I think I agree with you, but to play devil's advocate, the video game industry is struggling to monetize their work. No one wants to pay for games anymore, no one wants a pay to win system in a game, and cosmetic items seem like a waste of money to most. The result is the gaming industry pulling out all the tricks to try to separate the consume from his or her wallet to pay for content.

> the video game industry is struggling to monetize their work.

The video game industry is exceedingly profitable. It makes more money than the movie industry, at nearly $100 billion per year.

I don't think it's struggling to monetize. It seems quite successful at that.

Re: Epic Games to pay $245M for tricking users into making unwanted charges

#37

Post by acomjean »

PurpleRamen wrote: post #6

That's the second time now I read about Epic Games paying a fine for doing something obviously shady and illegal. I slowly get the impression that Epic Games might be a bit more scammy than your average company.

As an adult who’s partner plays Fortnite with her cousins and occasionally gets dragged in, I haven’t seen this. I’ve spent maybe 25, and it seemed pretty obvious what was going on. Maybe I just haven’t found the dark pattern path. It should be clear what’s going on before charging.

I don’t love the “v bucks” vs real dollars they charge for things. though I get that the reward for those who grind isn’t actual dollars.

As someone who let a younger person play on my laptop, I will note my balance was quickly brought down to 0 though I had some new “emotes”.. lesson learned.

I’d rather just pay once for games, though that seems to be on its way out.

Re: Epic Games to pay $245M for tricking users into making unwanted charges

#38

Post by RussianCow »

bena wrote: post #19
PurpleRamen wrote: post #6

That's the second time now I read about Epic Games paying a fine for doing something obviously shady and illegal. I slowly get the impression that Epic Games might be a bit more scammy than your average company.

Yeah, it makes their kerfuffle with Apple look a bit different. Because Apple charges 30%. And Apple can keep that if there is a refund. In this case, Epic is returning money. They would ideally be net zero on this whole debacle. You mistakenly bought $10 worth of skins, Epic collected that $10. Then you get refunded $10, Epic returns that $10. In the App Store scenario. You mistakenly bought $10 worth of skins, Appl…

> And if this is just refunding the purchases, it's kind of a good deal for Epic. As they essentially got an interest free loan from their customers.

Just a minor note: I believe credit card transaction fees are not refunded to the vendor, so there is still a non-zero cost to refunding customers which likely doesn't make it a "good deal".

(Disclaimer: It's been over a decade since I did anything related to payments, so this may be out of date, or I may be misremembering it.)

Re: Epic Games to pay $245M for tricking users into making unwanted charges

#39

Post by LanceH »

Kiro wrote: post #22
bluetidepro wrote: post #5

> Additionally, the order bars Epic from blocking consumers from accessing their accounts for disputing unauthorized charges. This could be bigger than people realize. This is very common in many tech companies like Uber/Doordash/Sony/etc. where if you do a chargeback, you often get blacklisted on their service. It would be amazing if this starts to end this practice, and you can actually have authority to get your m…

Why would you chargeback in Fortnite instead of just refunding? The only reasons I can think of are fraudulent ones.

They weren't getting refunded because kids were genuinely using their parents' credit cards. Parents are alleging fraud to the cc companies, but not reporting this as fraud legally.

Re: Epic Games to pay $245M for tricking users into making unwanted charges

#40

Post by altairprime »

cornstalks wrote: post #3

> Additionally, the order bars Epic from blocking consumers from accessing their accounts for disputing unauthorized charges. I really wish more companies were required to still allow account access after disputing a credit card charge.

The FTC’s order can be reasonably interpreted as a warning shot to other US companies, but I’d still like to see “chargebacks may only reverse access to that which the purchase paid for, not to the right to access past and future purchases” enshrined in law.
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