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Average Is Over

nytimes.com

31–40 of 254 posts

Re: Average Is Over

#32
post #30

I've been thinking about this a lot lately. I think he's right about many things there: manufacturing jobs are leaving and not coming back. Automation is becoming more and more advanced, particularly if you factor advances in robotics and ml since 2006 or so. Things move faster and average just doesn't seem to cut it when you can manufacture excellence. Hell, lawyers and doctors will be next, how about faux ai that c…

>how about faux ai that can write simple web apps or come up with good designs? A major class of workers that software has a tendency of replacing is programmers themselves. Bespoke solutions are replaced by what used to be called shrink-wrapped applications. In the web area, look at how services such as Squarespace replace bespoke sites by providing easy to use site design tools.

I am that guy, the average programmer. I used to wire up mobile apps to back end services. I have had no interest in my services for over a year. I think I have been replaced by iCloud, urban airship, parse, etc...

Re: Average Is Over

#33

I've been thinking about this a lot lately. I think he's right about many things there: manufacturing jobs are leaving and not coming back. Automation is becoming more and more advanced, particularly if you factor advances in robotics and ml since 2006 or so. Things move faster and average just doesn't seem to cut it when you can manufacture excellence. Hell, lawyers and doctors will be next, how about faux ai that c…

Here's hoping the endgame of programmers putting themselves out of work is the nerd rapture (friendly A.I., post-scarcity, etc.).

But from what I can tell in history, the future tends to turn out much weirder than the human imagination can conceive.

Re: Average Is Over

#34

Welcome to Peak Capitalism. This is the peak of our current socio-economic system, and I'm fairly certain that everyone in the White House is now well-aware and convinced of what's likely going to happen over the course of the next 10 years. I hope they're preparing for it right now. I believe the coming collapse of the capitalistic-democractic system is imminent, and America needs to very seriously start planning fo…

Because that worked out so well for Russia and China. Command economies have never efficiently allocated resources, and they never will. Economies are just too complicated for a single central authority to control successfully. They can never have enough accurate information, and can't be flexible enough to rapidly changing circumstances.

Just look at the hopeless response to the financial crisis from European leaders. You really want to put politicians in charge of all business activity as well?

Re: Average Is Over

#35
post #18

Ridiculous. The solution to average people becoming less relevant in the economy (which I don't dispute, btw) can of course never be to make everyone above average as that is by definition impossible. It's a feel good message for average folk that papers over the truth, which is that average folk that used to make a decent living doing average work will become poor. All of them, eventually. How poor exactly? Well, yo…

I didn't read anything about giving anyone a PhD?

I could be wrong, but he's talking less about "shifting" average to include a PhD, to shifting how average people are going to have to fend for themselves - which is to fight to be above average. As another commenter pointed out, this is impossible (if everyone's special, no one is), but it's also good to mention that you get to choose whether or not you want to be average. Sure, you can rely on being a cog in a machine, but if you do that, you just jumped into a super-competitive market dominated by machines and cheap overseas labor.

So, you can either relegate yourself to that fate or choose something different.

I believe his point was that there's a shift in the past could escape with being average because it was localized and there was less overall competition for jobs because of geographic limitations.

The math is that the market for average has been commoditized over 7 billion people + machines, rather than the 300 million people we used to. That brings the level of average much, much lower for certain types of works. So, the solution isn't to try and raise your qualifications level in a pool of average people, but rather jump in a different pool altogether, where your value as a worker is not so easily commoditized (knowledge workers, developing fields & emerging tech).

For anyone familiar with Seth Godin, this talk isn't very new at all - http://sethgodin.typepad.com/seths_blog/2006/04/no_to_averag...

Re: Average Is Over

#36
post #3

did you mean to link to the comment field in particular, or the entire article? in any case, it reminded me of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_income_guarantee

There's a comment further down linking to a series of articles which propose the same solution. http://marshallbrain.com/robotic-freedom.htm is the relevant article.

It's something that should be considered since it seems like currently there's nothing really keeping the value of human labor from going down, leaving most people destitute. However, even if it could be financed successfully, it would be a very dramatic change for our economy and society, and I don't really see any way to there from here. Our present culture is ultimately rooted on consumerism -- most people earn as much money as they're able to working a job and then spend all of it on things they need. We permit a small elite who can earn enough money to not need to work for a living to do as they see fit, but the vast majority is kept doing what society requires of them by the need to work at a job and earn a wage.

In a world where people are free to do what they want, there needs to be something to encourage them to do something which is beneficial to society, to prevent stagnation. The whole system begins to sound a lot like a refinement of what communist countries hoped to achieve in the 20th century, and it feels like we're back to many of the basic arguments for and against socialism.

If it isn't already clear from what I wrote, I have no real knowledge of this topic and I'm just rambling. The article I linked is a bit long but it and the FAQ it links to try to address some of these issues.

Re: Average Is Over

#37
post #14

It was only a few centuries ago that we paid this exclusive, elite upper class in society called scribes to write and transcribe things for us, because we weren't literate enough to do it ourselves. The parallels are pretty surprising today: we're paying an exclusive, elite class called programmers to write in the languages understood by computers. Software is eating the world, jobs are being displaced, and the deman…

There is also a defect in this comparison in that the journalists weren't helping displace average joe's jobs, but programmers are.

Re: Average Is Over

#38

The flip side is that all this automation makes stuff cheaper, and a better lifestyle is available for less money.

I think that should be the flip side but aside from 2009-2010 (the bulk of the recession), inflation has remained constant over the last ten years. Inflation adjusted wages have continued to decline to record numbers. The jobs that are returning in the current recovery have been primarily low paying ones (clearly IT is exempt from this). What has been going up is corporate profits. Apple's latest figures are mind bog…

I think that should be the flip side but aside from 2009-2010 (the bulk of the recession), inflation has remained constant over the last ten years.

While this may be true, technology has definitely become cheaper and more accessible. Eg. in my country, which is a Western economy, few people could afford computers in the 80ies, except maybe for the very low end (C64, MSX). Now many families have multiple laptops, smartphones, and maybe even a tablet.

Also, fixed Internet connections used to be expensive, pay per minute. Nowadays, for 20 Euros per month you get an internet connection without data limits and plenty of bandwidth.

Technology did become more accessible for the average family. And the impact is real: snail mail is almost killed, records stores have mostly disappeared, and next up are book stores. The price of e-mail is near-zero, iTunes music purchases are often cheaper than new physical albums (especially if you have to pay S&H fees), and Kindle ebooks are often cheaper than paper equivalents.

Re: Average Is Over

#39
post #3

did you mean to link to the comment field in particular, or the entire article? in any case, it reminded me of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_income_guarantee

I tend to agree with that solution, though I think there are more and less sustainable vs. conflict-inducing ways of structuring it. The simplest way is just to pay out cash collected from taxes, but that's always subject to conflict around "my tax money going to support lazy bums" type stuff, and easy to cut (or fiddle with in various ways to meet other budgetary goals).

More sustainable basic incomes tend to be structured as royalties imo, like Alaska's oil fund. One possibility would be to look at what might happen in a future where agriculture is mainly mechanized, so in effect food is being grown by robots. Initially what that'll mean is whoever got in place first will profit from them; whoever had the land and the capital to invest in the robots will then own the results of their production, even in a hypothetical future where they run 100% on autopilot henceforth. So it's a sort of strong-dependence-on-initial-conditions type situation, where who gets the results of the robots' labor depends basically on who was on top in the last pre-robot generation (granted, it may not be a purely black-and-white pre-robot/robot transition). I think in that case we'd have to eventually (somehow) transition towards a bunch of arable land + robots being held in trust for the population as a whole, splitting up the proceeds, or at least a portion of them, like the Alaska oil fund.

Lots of details and questions around exactly how the numbers work out, but at a high level I like a solution of not intruding much into the "normal" part of the economy, like humans doing things for other humans, but operating some basic minerals/land/agriculture in some sort of trust arrangement, with proceeds distributed to everyone, as their share of the proceeds of the earth+robots (as opposed to the proceeds of other humans' labor).

Re: Average Is Over

#40
post #14

It was only a few centuries ago that we paid this exclusive, elite upper class in society called scribes to write and transcribe things for us, because we weren't literate enough to do it ourselves. The parallels are pretty surprising today: we're paying an exclusive, elite class called programmers to write in the languages understood by computers. Software is eating the world, jobs are being displaced, and the deman…

Scribes were reasonably well off, sure, but to call them an "exclusive, elite upper class" goes beyond stretching it. Scribes were decently paid clerks that worked for scheming, sword wielding thugs who only gradually became literate themselves.

I don't think we're an elite, upper class now either. We're decently paid clerks that perform an essential task for our scheming, private jet flying, yes, thuggish overlords that for now at least haven't become computer literate themselves. Yet.

But the day will come that they will have, or at least will have become computer literate enough to operate the software that has displaced us.

If that day comes after I've died, I don't mind. Otherwise it'll be a problem.

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