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Tesla's next-gen electric motors will get rid of rare earth elements

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Re: Tesla's next-gen electric motors will get rid of rare earth elements

#31

Post by schiffern »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #2

Why this is important: If successful, this contributes towards the reduction of national security risk around rare earth supplies and supply chain located in a possibly unfriendly nation state (major deposits are in Russia and China) and also means you don’t have to establish rare earth mines or supply chains in your own countries (capital and environmental concerns). It’s a big deal! Also, just as newer battery chem…

>just as newer battery chemistries moved away from cobalt

Tesla seems to be the leader here. Per Investor Day[0] and other sources, they

- developed low-cobalt and low-nickel cathodes, to reduce scarce battery metals

- increased overall vehicle efficiency to allow iron cathodes which are earth-abundant

- consolidated electronic modules to reduce microchips and wiring

- are soon switching to 48V, to further reduce low-voltage copper wiring (copper being a 'medium-rare' metal)

- switched from copper to aluminum high voltage conductors (per Munro Live), aluminum having better conductivity-to-weight

- reduced vehicle structure with structural battery design and 'gigacasting' manufacturing

Many of these seem to benefit from vertical integration.

Are any other manufacturers pushing as hard here?

[0] https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Hl1zEzVUV7w&t=1875s

Re: Tesla's next-gen electric motors will get rid of rare earth elements

#32

Post by llamaLord »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #19
tenpies wrote: post #7

> Tesla plans New content for https://elonmusk.today

Ehh, Tesla just sold their 4 millionth vehicle (waited until then for investor day so they could flex), are breaking ground in Mexico shortly on their new factory, and are rapidly approaching $100B/year in revenue at a 25-30% margin (while other EV startups are teetering near death and legacies are slow to catch up). Constructive skepticism is fine, but strong evidence of their innovation capacity is available (espec…

Careful, this comment comes awfully close to expressing something resembling nuance... Pretty sure that's illegal these days.

Re: Tesla's next-gen electric motors will get rid of rare earth elements

#33

Post by FireBeyond »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #19
tenpies wrote: post #7

> Tesla plans New content for https://elonmusk.today

Ehh, Tesla just sold their 4 millionth vehicle (waited until then for investor day so they could flex), are breaking ground in Mexico shortly on their new factory, and are rapidly approaching $100B/year in revenue at a 25-30% margin (while other EV startups are teetering near death and legacies are slow to catch up). Constructive skepticism is fine, but strong evidence of their innovation capacity is available (espec…

> revenue at a 25-30% margin

I love how Tesla fans are so quick to applaud how much money Tesla is making from them. It seems most of "the mission" is (re-) building Musk's wealth.

> such as their heat pumps

The heat pumps that have been a problematic nightmare?

Re: Tesla's next-gen electric motors will get rid of rare earth elements

#34

Post by beambot »

londons_explore wrote: post #24

There are lots of ways to make motors without rare earths... There aren't many ways to make permanent magnet motors without rare earths. The slide specifically claims this is the next generation permanent magnet motor. So the question is... Did they invent a new magnet Chemistry... Or are they using a known magnet Chemistry and are okay with not-very-strong magnets?

Best example I know of for new magnet chemistry without rare earths is Niron Magnetics:

https://www.nironmagnetics.com/

https://hackaday.com/2022/09/01/iron-nitrides-powerful-magne...

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=34359383

Re: Tesla's next-gen electric motors will get rid of rare earth elements

#35

Post by EFreethought »

senttoschool wrote: post #27
Ankaios wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet, the US actually has allies. After all the crap the US has done, it still has allies. What? Why? Oh, because it's all about economics and power. Interesting thesis. At the same time, China has few allies. Does that mean China has a poor economy and little power?

Interesting thesis. At the same time, China has few allies. Does that mean China has a poor economy and little power? Maybe it's news to you but China has been poor for nearly 150+ years. In the past, China had the highest GDP in the world. But the opium trade, western wars, caused it to become as poor as it did. It's only in the last 10 years or so that China's economy has been big enough to garner more allies. Even…

It's not news to some of us.

Part of that is that the last imperial dynasty to rule China was not Chinese, but ethnically Manchurian. A lot of problems came from that. Granted, that does not make it okay that the West helped carve them up. But a lot of their external issues in the past few centuries have internal root.

If the Han and the Manchurians could not get along, how is that the West's fault?

WRT "terrorism" in Xinjiang: I think non-Han minorities might have a different opinion than the official Beijing line.

Re: Tesla's next-gen electric motors will get rid of rare earth elements

#36

Post by hedora »

senttoschool wrote: post #30
to11mtm wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and in the last 300 years, it's hard to find a country that has abused more human rights. Surely, between: - The Armenian Genocide - The Holocaust - The Holdomor - Pogroms - Apartheid regimes - Purges of the Bourgeoisie - One Child Policy I find it hard to think that the US (With it's many, many fuck-ups) is the only, let alone the -worst- guilty party in the last 100 years. O wait, if we only counted the last 100…

I find it hard to think that the US (With it's many, many fuck-ups) is the only, let alone the -worst- guilty party in the last 100 years. Slavery and native American genocides are pretty bad - as well as the countless countries US has invaded/bombed. But anyways, are we trying to estimate which country has done more bad in the last 300 years? China or US? And are you willing to become more pro-China if we conclude t…

The US also initiated many famines. For instance, there was one in 2020 that US policy contributed to.

Re: Tesla's next-gen electric motors will get rid of rare earth elements

#37

Post by hedora »

FireBeyond wrote: post #33
toomuchtodo wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ehh, Tesla just sold their 4 millionth vehicle (waited until then for investor day so they could flex), are breaking ground in Mexico shortly on their new factory, and are rapidly approaching $100B/year in revenue at a 25-30% margin (while other EV startups are teetering near death and legacies are slow to catch up). Constructive skepticism is fine, but strong evidence of their innovation capacity is available (espec…

> revenue at a 25-30% margin I love how Tesla fans are so quick to applaud how much money Tesla is making from them. It seems most of "the mission" is (re-) building Musk's wealth. > such as their heat pumps The heat pumps that have been a problematic nightmare?

My BMW’s heatpump is great. What are you talking about?

;-)

Re: Tesla's next-gen electric motors will get rid of rare earth elements

#38

Post by labster »

senttoschool wrote: post #10
luma wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m no fan of Trump but even a broken clock is right twice a day. China is not our friend, and they do decidedly unfriendly things.

China was our friend. It's the US that decided to unfriend China. Not the other way around.

China is nobody’s friend but China’s. You cannot interact with the Chinese government in anything other than a transactional manner. The only unfriending that happened is the US and China stopped agreeing on some limits, which hurt the feelings of the Chinese people.

Re: Tesla's next-gen electric motors will get rid of rare earth elements

#39

Post by toomuchtodo »

FireBeyond wrote: post #33
toomuchtodo wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ehh, Tesla just sold their 4 millionth vehicle (waited until then for investor day so they could flex), are breaking ground in Mexico shortly on their new factory, and are rapidly approaching $100B/year in revenue at a 25-30% margin (while other EV startups are teetering near death and legacies are slow to catch up). Constructive skepticism is fine, but strong evidence of their innovation capacity is available (espec…

> revenue at a 25-30% margin I love how Tesla fans are so quick to applaud how much money Tesla is making from them. It seems most of "the mission" is (re-) building Musk's wealth. > such as their heat pumps The heat pumps that have been a problematic nightmare?

Money pays the bills. It’s why Tesla is successful and automakers who tried to sell econobox EVs couldn’t. Build sexy cars people with purchasing power will buy, and younger consumers aspire to. Pour that into fast DC chargers and rapidly expanding global manufacturing capacity. Profit. You cannot will these things into existence, they require capital (investment, revenue, whatever).

No one ever said Katy Perry had the Bolt or Nissan leaf of tour stages. I recommend some brand equity reading, as well as behavioral economics around the psychology of auto purchases (lots of emotion, brand loyalty, etc).

https://twitter.com/katyperry/status/444228348319784960 (“Omg someone just called my stage the TESLA of tour stages... It was like, the coolest modern compliment ever.”) (2014)

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