Negotiating a Job Offer with a Company • Hacker News Board

Re: Negotiating a Job Offer with a Company

#31

Post by tptacek » Mon, Jan 23, 2012, 5:47 PM UTC

prof_hobart wrote: post #22

roel_v wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think the article said 'current salary', it was talking about 'how much do you want'. Those two are different - when you're the first to name a number of how much you want, you can anchor the discussion. Of course when you run into a company who feels they should pay you according to what you made in your previous job, they'll think the two are within 10% or so of each other. I think it's fair to never name h…

"but there is a common misconception that if you disclose your salary to an employer, it will limit the potential salary offered. It’s your experience that is indicative of your ability, not your current salary "

Which is just a flatly false statement. Disclosing your salary doesn't so much "limit" the potential salary offered as "determine it entirely".

Obviously, you can negotiate yourself back from that horrible starting position --- but devs are such terrible negotiators in general, why on earth would one advocate for anything that makes negotiation harder?

Re: Negotiating a Job Offer with a Company

#32

Post by tptacek » Mon, Jan 23, 2012, 5:54 PM UTC

Peroni wrote: post #19

patio11 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without implying any bad will about the author of this post, who is a recruiter, recruiters are incentivized to close deals, not to get you the best possible package. It is possible that this background would convince a recruiter that advice which is against your interests is still a good idea, because if he adopts advice which will predictably results in employees underpricing themselves, his conversion rate from in…

I can see where you are coming from but ultimately I disagree. The strong counter-argument in the comments here has prompted me to write a follow-up post clarifying my position in detail so hopefully that will help eradicate the notion that I would weaken a candidates negotiating position for my own benefit regardless of whether I do it consciously or otherwise.

But you're just one out of tens of thousands of recruiters. You have to believe something pretty radical to think that recruiters on the whole are immune to incentives.

We can safely assume that you're conscientious and that you go out of your way to defend the interests of candidates. Then we can move on to telling developers how to deal with normal recruiters.

This particular debate, just remember, is about whether you should disclose your current salary to a recruiter or prospective employee. The answer is: you simply should not do that, full stop. If you disagree, it would be helpful if you disagreed directly and provided evidence for your view; that would be more constructive than centering the discussion on your own professionalism and ethics, which nobody wants to call into question.

Re: Negotiating a Job Offer with a Company

#33

Post by tptacek » Mon, Jan 23, 2012, 6:00 PM UTC

xiaoma wrote: post #13

patio11 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

willing to risk losing the job In almost all cases, the original offer is still on the table. "Negotiating with the decisionmaker will cost me this offer, so don't negotiate" is something which is only really believed by engineers who are -- and I say this with love -- abominably incompetent at negotiation. This is regrettable, since skill at negotiation matters a whole heck of a lot more than skill with Chef or mast…

As someone who's been on the other side of the table (in multiple businesses), I really can't agree. In most cases, a business has a desire to fill a position fairly quickly, and especially in start-ups and small businesses, cost is a major concern. In larger businesses or governmental organizations, HR regulations and bureaucracy become a major factor. I've personally filtered out dozens if not hundreds of otherwise…

It is not an employer's market for talent in any place that needs talent.

You're probably right that line-of-business developers at Fortune-100 insurance companies on the east coast have a harder time than SFBA devs. But don't overgeneralize: in software companies in the US, it is a seller's market for talent.

So, two specific responses:

(1) You can in general safely push back on the first offer from any company --- this practice is so time-honored that it gets a chapter in _What Color Is My Parachute_, which is among the most anodyne sources of career counseling out there. Hiring managers, even at office furniture companies in Grand Rapids Michigan, are prepared for you to reject the first offer, and they've deliberately calibrated their first offer to deal with that.

(2) Technology companies everywhere will in 2012 go out of their way to work through salary negotiation. It doesn't matter if you're in SFBA, Seattle, Austin, Chicago, or Cleveland: if they're hiring for talent (ie, if they're actually a tech company), you're not going to spook them. Wherever they are, they have gotten used to the idea that candidates hold the cards and are likely at any point to decide to relo to Mountain View to work for 1.5x as much as you can pay them.

Re: Negotiating a Job Offer with a Company

#34

Post by xiaoma » Mon, Jan 23, 2012, 8:48 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #33

xiaoma wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who's been on the other side of the table (in multiple businesses), I really can't agree. In most cases, a business has a desire to fill a position fairly quickly, and especially in start-ups and small businesses, cost is a major concern. In larger businesses or governmental organizations, HR regulations and bureaucracy become a major factor. I've personally filtered out dozens if not hundreds of otherwise…

It is not an employer's market for talent in any place that needs talent. You're probably right that line-of-business developers at Fortune-100 insurance companies on the east coast have a harder time than SFBA devs. But don't overgeneralize: in software companies in the US, it is a seller's market for talent. So, two specific responses: (1) You can in general safely push back on the first offer from any company ---…

I never mentioned the US. I'm in Beijing and absolutely flooded with resumes from hard-working, talented people.

Before you automatically write off all of China (as well as India and other nearby countries), consider that engineering is moving at a rapid pace here. Not only are some internet companies ahead of western counterparts (e.g. free to play gaming models), but there's simultaneously a boom in materials engineering, medical devices and clean-tech.

I realize that the US is particularly insulated from the market realities, due to a difficult immigration system amongst other things. I can't really comment much on the specifics. But those sorts of distortions don't don't generalize to the entire world, and they won't last forever.

Re: Negotiating a Job Offer with a Company

#35

Post by kibibyte » Tue, Jan 24, 2012, 5:08 AM UTC

rmc wrote: post #28

kibibyte wrote: post #14

I have seen a lot of posts and advice like this about increasing your starting salary by negotiating with your recruiter. However, I am a college student looking for an internship. How much of a negotiating position would I have? Is it even advisable for me to try negotiating, considering that I'm only a college intern?

Can you programme FizzBuzz? If so, then you could consider getting a paying job. Unless you really, really want to work at $BIG_COMPANY, and you could only get an internship with them, or you are only looking for something for 3ish months. If you are looking for 'experience' and you have a year, get a paying job.

I'm looking for 3-month internships currently. I suppose that it wouldn't be advisable in this case, would it?

Re: Negotiating a Job Offer with a Company

#36

Post by Peroni » Tue, Jan 24, 2012, 9:41 AM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #32

Peroni wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can see where you are coming from but ultimately I disagree. The strong counter-argument in the comments here has prompted me to write a follow-up post clarifying my position in detail so hopefully that will help eradicate the notion that I would weaken a candidates negotiating position for my own benefit regardless of whether I do it consciously or otherwise.

But you're just one out of tens of thousands of recruiters. You have to believe something pretty radical to think that recruiters on the whole are immune to incentives. We can safely assume that you're conscientious and that you go out of your way to defend the interests of candidates. Then we can move on to telling developers how to deal with normal recruiters. This particular debate, just remember, is about whether…

I had originally included a lengthy argument against disclosing your salary to recruiters specifically. That element was removed due to the fact that the post was aimed at graduates who most likely won't have to deal with recruiters for a number of years. In my follow-up post I am dealing with both topics specifically. Not negotiation but purely the facts as to why I think it's best to withhold your salary from a recruiter and disclose it to an employer.

Fortunately I am not just one out of tens of thousands of recruiters. I've been in this game for three years, prior to which I was on the other side of the fence managing a team of 8 people, regularly interviewing potential employees and entering negotiation battles as an employer with a strict budget.

Re: Negotiating a Job Offer with a Company

#37

Post by prof_hobart » Tue, Jan 24, 2012, 4:55 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #31

prof_hobart wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"but there is a common misconception that if you disclose your salary to an employer, it will limit the potential salary offered. It’s your experience that is indicative of your ability, not your current salary "

Which is just a flatly false statement. Disclosing your salary doesn't so much "limit" the potential salary offered as "determine it entirely". Obviously, you can negotiate yourself back from that horrible starting position --- but devs are such terrible negotiators in general, why on earth would one advocate for anything that makes negotiation harder?

Maybe so - all I was pointing out was that the article was definitely talking about current salary at some points.