Rivian announces 1B gross loss and 600M revenue [pdf] • Hacker News Board

Re: Rivian announces 1B gross loss and 600M revenue [pdf]

#31

Post by bink » Tue, Feb 28, 2023, 9:50 PM UTC

giobox wrote: post #22

mbgerring wrote: post #9

The financials may not look good right now, but the vehicles are extremely good. They’re already way out in front of the EV truck segment, and the big automakers have a huge gap to make up to reach the same level of quality. I wouldn’t be surprised if they manage to turn this around and become profitable.

In isolation, sure, but this space is going to get so fiercely competitive so quickly (on the order of years, but that is fast for the car industry!) and ASPs for electric trucks will come down. Rivian are still generally only selling ~six-figure trucks today (the priciest configs ship sooner of course) and not making money at it. How good the vehicle is becomes irrelevant if you can't make it at a price people want…

I'm not sure it's fair to say the priciest configs ship sooner. They're really only delivering two trucks right now, the quad motor, large pack versions of the R1T and R1S. The dual motor configs are cheaper but were only introduced recently. The max pack versions have been for sale for awhile and none of have been delivered, but they're also the most expensive.

They did raise prices around 1 year ago but I've seen no evidence that they've prioritized orders for those who purchased after the price increase or who equipped more expensive options (options like tents and racks are shipping separately).

Re: Rivian announces 1B gross loss and 600M revenue [pdf]

#32

Post by mbgerring » Tue, Feb 28, 2023, 9:50 PM UTC

sinistersnare wrote: post #2

[flagged]

The entire vehicle fleet needs to be electrified, period. There are areas of the United States where a private 4WD vehicle are a necessity to get to and from home. The only way to eventually retire the vast infrastructure required to deliver fossil fuels to rural areas, and everywhere else, is to electrify the entire fleet.

Climate change is a chemistry and engineering problem. You can solve some of the chemistry and engineering problem upstream, through social and cultural changes, but insisting that those changes are the only way to solve the problem is flat-out false, and absolutely repellent to many people that, ultimately, will need to be brought along in the transition away from fossil fuels.

Nothing is stopping you from working on the myriad issues that prevent greater adoption of public transportation, and you and the world would be better served by getting to work building the future you want instead of trashing the efforts of people working the problem from a different angle.

Re: Rivian announces 1B gross loss and 600M revenue [pdf]

#33

Post by mattlondon » Tue, Feb 28, 2023, 9:51 PM UTC

mushufasa wrote: post #5

"We generated negative gross profit of $(1,000) million for the fourth quarter 2022. For fiscal year 2022, we generated negative gross profit of $(3,123) million. Gross profit for the fourth quarter 2022 was impacted by a lower of cost or net realizable value (“LCNRV”) of inventory charge and losses on firm purchase commitments of $920 million as of December 31, 2022 compared to $95 million as of December 31, 2021. W…

"negative gross profit" ... that is corpspeak for "loss" right?

I guess don't say "The L-word" is some attempt to paint a rosy picture? "This is not use losing money! We're making a negativeprofit by investing!"

Re: Rivian announces 1B gross loss and 600M revenue [pdf]

#34

Post by rootusrootus » Tue, Feb 28, 2023, 9:51 PM UTC

PaulsWallet wrote: post #23

gwbas1c wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Public transportation is a luxury. It assumes that you can live in a dense area and that your travel needs coincide with bus/train routes. It's very practical for many, and very impractical for many too.

I ride the bus and I can promise you I don't do it because of luxury. Even if that was true, it would only be true in North America. In the rest of the developed world, public transport extends out into rural areas.

> the rest of the developed world, public transport extends out into rural areas

Are you by chance referring to Europe with this comment? I ask because Europe's idea of rural and North America's idea are quite different.

Re: Rivian announces 1B gross loss and 600M revenue [pdf]

#35

Post by giobox » Tue, Feb 28, 2023, 9:52 PM UTC

bink wrote: post #31

giobox wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In isolation, sure, but this space is going to get so fiercely competitive so quickly (on the order of years, but that is fast for the car industry!) and ASPs for electric trucks will come down. Rivian are still generally only selling ~six-figure trucks today (the priciest configs ship sooner of course) and not making money at it. How good the vehicle is becomes irrelevant if you can't make it at a price people want…

I'm not sure it's fair to say the priciest configs ship sooner. They're really only delivering two trucks right now, the quad motor, large pack versions of the R1T and R1S. The dual motor configs are cheaper but were only introduced recently. The max pack versions have been for sale for awhile and none of have been delivered, but they're also the most expensive. They did raise prices around 1 year ago but I've seen n…

If you can't make money on the highest margin configs (and they can't yet), you certainly don't prioritise selling the lower margin models. This is a fairly common practice for a new model line from an auto-maker and Rivian are no different.

The reason I point price out at all, competition is already available for less in places (F150 Lightning), and more electric trucks are due to launch shortly - not great if you can't turn a profit on six figure models let alone considering lower priced offerings to compete.

Re: Rivian announces 1B gross loss and 600M revenue [pdf]

#36

Post by hedora » Tue, Feb 28, 2023, 9:52 PM UTC

mbgerring wrote: post #9

The financials may not look good right now, but the vehicles are extremely good. They’re already way out in front of the EV truck segment, and the big automakers have a huge gap to make up to reach the same level of quality. I wouldn’t be surprised if they manage to turn this around and become profitable.

I really like their cars, but they’re not practical replacements for a full size pickup truck (as the F-150 Lightning is).

Anyway, they’re competing more with range rover and jeep than trucks, which is fine (and also a mostly-unaddressed segment).

Re: Rivian announces 1B gross loss and 600M revenue [pdf]

#37

Post by tsudounym » Tue, Feb 28, 2023, 9:52 PM UTC

gwbas1c wrote: post #6

sinistersnare wrote: post #2

[flagged]

Public transportation is a luxury. It assumes that you can live in a dense area and that your travel needs coincide with bus/train routes. It's very practical for many, and very impractical for many too.

What a hilariously American comment. Nearly all American cities were built by train networks that existed in the 1800s. These train lines were ripped out to make way for car infrastructure in the mid-1900s, which was designed to segregate neighborhoods and give giant profits to GM. Even famously car-centric LA with their massive freeways once had the best public transit in the world.

https://www.segregationbydesign.com/

Re: Rivian announces 1B gross loss and 600M revenue [pdf]

#38

Post by post_break » Tue, Feb 28, 2023, 9:53 PM UTC

tomcam wrote: post #28

fnordpiglet wrote: post #4

“We make the Amazon delivery vehicles that Amazon gets at cost so we are a cost center that manages to offset our expenses by $600M further optimizing the weighted cost per delivery vehicle for Amazon.”

Can you translate that for me?

They sell the delivery trucks at cost, we're going to try to make that cost lower so we won't lose money on each one sold.

Re: Rivian announces 1B gross loss and 600M revenue [pdf]

#39

Post by majormajor » Tue, Feb 28, 2023, 9:53 PM UTC

gwbas1c wrote: post #6

sinistersnare wrote: post #2

[flagged]

Public transportation is a luxury. It assumes that you can live in a dense area and that your travel needs coincide with bus/train routes. It's very practical for many, and very impractical for many too.

It's a luxury IFF you live right next to a station and need to go right next to stations and your trains/busses/whatever aren't too crowded.

Otherwise it's a necessity for those for whom private transportation is a luxury, and often not a pleasant one. Crammed standing into a crowded box, or transferring a couple of times to take 2 hours by bus to go somewhere you could get to directly in 30min, etc.

"Invest in public transportation" is a hard sell in a country where a huge portion of the population is able to afford private vehicles and space to park them, because the level of investment required to even equal the convenience factor of that is very, very, very high.

EDIT: even in Europe you don't have to travel that far outside of city centers to find quite a bit of private car ownership. All those European car companies aren't just doing it for shits and giggles, after all.

Re: Rivian announces 1B gross loss and 600M revenue [pdf]

#40

Post by echelon » Tue, Feb 28, 2023, 9:53 PM UTC

mbgerring wrote: post #9

The financials may not look good right now, but the vehicles are extremely good. They’re already way out in front of the EV truck segment, and the big automakers have a huge gap to make up to reach the same level of quality. I wouldn’t be surprised if they manage to turn this around and become profitable.

100% anecdotal: I'm in Georgia. If I had to guesstimate, I see about ~20 Rivians a month now in both urban and suburban settings. They seem to be catching on.