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When She Codes, The Revolution’s Coming

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Re: When She Codes, The Revolution’s Coming

#31

Post by blahedo »

This is pretty great. Its first-order effects would be good enough: a successful class that turns people from mere users into content creators. Great!

But the second-order effects may be more important. Nearly anyone, when first introduced to computers, is "just" a user---they use the computer in the ways that are taught to them. Those of us that progress into general programmers generally had some transition phase where we were sort of "just users", typing something in or following instructions, but those things we typed in were our gateway to the next level. For me, it was typing in BASIC listings from magazines in the mid-80s on the family Apple IIe, and then figuring out that I could tweak them and make the programs do new things that weren't in the original article. For some of my students these days, it was typing in WoW macros and then learning to tweak their own.

A couple years ago, I had a student whose original entree into programming came via a web design class mostly involving HTML and largely done using a front-end app (Dreamweaver maybe?). But it was a start, and it inspired her to learn more about HTML and then eventually to take AP CS and major in it in college. I think her sex and her gender are only statistically relevant here---there most certainly are girls that play video games and will want to write macros, and there are boys that can will be well-served by an HTML-first curriculum. But she suspected, and I agree, that teaching people structured content creation will have long-term effects of increasing the ratio of females in all areas of CS.

But whether that speculation is accurate or not, let's not be dissing this person's experience because it's not programming-y enough. We don't need to be gatekeeping the secrets of the High Priesthood here; everyone needs to start somewhere. And whether Ms. Mlotek eventually goes on into "true" programming or not, she's more computer-empowered than before, so we should be happy for her, and if not her then others who go through this program, both male and female, will find their way into programming and other CS disciplines. And that is something we should all be happy about.

(PS: For those of you complaining that the post was more about feminism than programming, she warned you right there in the subhed: "Is Ladies Learning Code awesome and feminist, or just awesome?". What did you think it would be about?)

Re: When She Codes, The Revolution’s Coming

#32

Post by mycodebreaks »

Honestly, I really do not understand why women being programmers is such a hyped concept. I have seen many women as doctors, lawyers and in science. Women might be more interested in other professions, which I think is the only reason that keeps women from working as programmers or engineers.

Definitely, the problem, if it is a problem, is due to choice women make, not due to their abilities.

Re: When She Codes, The Revolution’s Coming

#33

Post by weaksauce »

prophetjohn wrote: post #17
sequoia wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wordpress dot com is a blog hosting service based on wordpress. Perhaps she meant they were setting up a web server to run multiple blogs with multiple users, using wordpress as as a platform (and specifically the MultiSite feature https://codex.wordpress.org/Create_A_Network ). I can see how this would be a useful endeavor. In any case, yes, her language may be imprecise here but remember to be forgiving to people w…

No, you're right; I don't really have enough information to evaluate her skills, mainly because she didn't talk about what she learned. So, the language she used to describe technical things is the only way I could try to evaluate her technical knowledge. And upon further review, it seems pretty likely that the class she took is this one: http://ladieslearningcodejan14.eventbrite.com/

Wow, an 8 hour $40 course with a 4:1 student to instructor ratio. With even just a little bit of demand no wonder it sells out so quickly.

Re: When She Codes, The Revolution’s Coming

#34

Post by ceol »

eternalban wrote: post #22

"If we allow ..." Who is this we and how is this authoritarian power exercised? Interestingly enough, Age discrimination in the industry continues to be ignored while the (IMO) highly debatable notion of sex discrimination in the field is the subject of countless articles and debates. At least the Japanese are honest about the fact that they don't want programmers older than 30 years of age. The barrier to entry in t…

There's nothing debatable about gender discrimination existing in the industry. It's not your opinion. It exists.

Age discrimination exists as well, but that's not what this article is about, and you shouldn't try to grab focus with it.

Re: When She Codes, The Revolution’s Coming

#35

Post by jdp23 »

Cushman wrote: post #29
mekoka wrote: post #18

Avery Swartz, a mentor at another table, works as a freelance website designer. “A lot of my clients are women. They don’t necessarily want to work with a man because they are afraid of the intimidation factor, the tech speak, the ‘jargon’. I want women to feel empowered, to know that they can take an active role.” This is not a gender problem, it's pedagogical. My granddad would be intimidated to learn to code for t…

You're missing the point-- it is about gender. Women don't want to work with, and especially learn from, men because they are afraid that the man will not know how to speak to them as an equal. They're afraid he'll hide his discomfort behind jargon, and that he will be unable to be nice without being patronizing. Heaven forfend that this man, like many highly technical people, is socially awkward in general! In that…

Well said. It's a pedagogical problem; and it's about gender.

Re: When She Codes, The Revolution’s Coming

#36

Post by rdouble »

eternalban wrote: post #22

"If we allow ..." Who is this we and how is this authoritarian power exercised? Interestingly enough, Age discrimination in the industry continues to be ignored while the (IMO) highly debatable notion of sex discrimination in the field is the subject of countless articles and debates. At least the Japanese are honest about the fact that they don't want programmers older than 30 years of age. The barrier to entry in t…

At least the Japanese are honest about the fact that they don't want programmers older than 30 years of age.

When I lived in Japan it seemed like nobody even got a job until they were 30...

Re: When She Codes, The Revolution’s Coming

#37

Post by ceol »

mekoka wrote: post #25
rabidsnail wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The population of players of video games is dominated by teenager males because the developers of video games have teenager males in mind. Game developers have teenager males in mind because the original game developers _were_ teenager males. Farmville and Wii Sports show that there is a vast market for video games aimed at women that is only now starting to be explored.

The population of players of video games is dominated by teenager males because the developers of video games have teenager males in mind. I would not be so sure. We all played games like pac-man, goonies, super mario and such. I remember when we were kids that we had tons of somewhat gender neutral games, but boys were the ones mostly interested in playing. Looking back, I'm more convinced today that it was a cultur…

Look at the three games you listed. Pac-Man, Super Mario, Goonies (a game about young men).

Re: When She Codes, The Revolution’s Coming

#38

Post by ceol »

prophetjohn wrote: post #12
josscrowcroft wrote: post #7

So I'm reading this, then I skim down and see how long it is. I read some more. Is it me or did this make no real point at all? Ladies learning code. Good idea, because more people coding is good, ladies or otherwise. I fail to see why the author is so amazingly hung up on whether or not it's feminist.

The writing definitely struck me as pretty meandering. I was pretty sure I was going to read about what the class was like and what she learned at first, but then it just kind of veered off into debating whether or not it was a feminist organization with no real direction. It's only tangentially about learning to use WordPress.

You're missing the point of the article. It's not about getting you introduced to the class; it's about discussing why this class is dedicated to women but not identifying as "feminist".

Re: When She Codes, The Revolution’s Coming

#39

Post by ceol »

mycodebreaks wrote: post #30

Honestly, I really do not understand why women being programmers is such a hyped concept. I have seen many women as doctors, lawyers and in science. Women might be more interested in other professions, which I think is the only reason that keeps women from working as programmers or engineers. Definitely, the problem, if it is a problem, is due to choice women make, not due to their abilities.

Women becoming programmers is hyped for the same reason women becoming doctors and lawyers was hyped decades ago: diversity fuels innovation. They're interested in other professions because the culture surrounding programming is such a "boy's club", it's like a nigh-impenetrable shield. And it's not so much they're interested in other professions as they are pushed away from programming.

The lack of women in programming isn't their fault. It's ours.

Re: When She Codes, The Revolution’s Coming

#40

Post by eternalban »

ceol wrote: post #34
eternalban wrote: post #22

"If we allow ..." Who is this we and how is this authoritarian power exercised? Interestingly enough, Age discrimination in the industry continues to be ignored while the (IMO) highly debatable notion of sex discrimination in the field is the subject of countless articles and debates. At least the Japanese are honest about the fact that they don't want programmers older than 30 years of age. The barrier to entry in t…

There's nothing debatable about gender discrimination existing in the industry. It's not your opinion. It exists. Age discrimination exists as well, but that's not what this article is about, and you shouldn't try to grab focus with it.

My personal experience in the field does not support your apparently strongly held assertion. Thus "IMO".

> "you shouldn't try to grab focus with"

Please do not question my motivation. I had a point to make.

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