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OKRs will never be enough

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Re: OKRs will never be enough

#31

Post by naijaboiler »

LambdaComplex wrote: post #28
zemvpferreira wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my experience you have it right but backwards: These frameworks exist to help management manage teams without quality people. Scrum/agile is exactly the same thing. The stricter and more documented the process, the more fungible actual team-members are. That's important in places like bodyshops and non-software business where no self-respecting engineer with options would want to work, and places where monotonous…

> Scrum/agile is exactly the same thing. The stricter and more documented the process The Agile manifesto specifically says "Individuals and interactions over processes and tools." If teams are forced to work in a certain way (e.g. scrum) then your organization isn't actually doing Agile.

I am tired of "you are doing Agile wrong" arguments. I hear it all the time. What's the point of a manifesto that only works when done perfectly right. A manifesto/process that isn't robust to imperfections has no role in a real world, which is always going to be imperfect

Re: OKRs will never be enough

#32

Post by mavelikara »

proc0 wrote: post #19

This is the framework beneath the language that as an engineer has gone above my head for a long time. Large tech companies often fail to bridge this language gap, and maybe that contributes to some friction overall. On a slightly different note, it would be great if organizations had no expectations for engineers to learn or know about any of this... and also get promoted. I went to school for so long to be a techni…

If you do not contribute more to the business than the job you originally took, why should you be promoted? I can imagine you getting a raise as you demonstrate more proficiency in the job, but promotion seems to imply that you do a different job for the business.

Re: OKRs will never be enough

#33

Post by ramraj07 »

pflenker wrote: post #5

I am so happy to work in a company that does not work with this business voodoo (and still delivers great results). All goal frameworks I have worked in, OKRs included, were a colossal waste of time.

What size is your company? What else can we do when a company has reached 1000+ employees?

Re: OKRs will never be enough

#34

Post by LambdaComplex »

naijaboiler wrote: post #31
LambdaComplex wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Scrum/agile is exactly the same thing. The stricter and more documented the process The Agile manifesto specifically says "Individuals and interactions over processes and tools." If teams are forced to work in a certain way (e.g. scrum) then your organization isn't actually doing Agile.

I am tired of "you are doing Agile wrong" arguments. I hear it all the time. What's the point of a manifesto that only works when done perfectly right. A manifesto/process that isn't robust to imperfections has no role in a real world, which is always going to be imperfect

There's a difference between "doing something poorly" and "doing the exact opposite of something and claiming that you're doing it"

Agile is robust because it ISN'T a strict process.

Re: OKRs will never be enough

#35

Post by theptip »

rubyn00bie wrote: post #25

At this point, I'm full "sickos.jpg" watching organizations switch goal setting frameworks to fix issues stemming entirely from communication, planning, and accountability problems. I'm not even going to get started on how silly these scorecards are considering the metrics shown are a minimum for running a business.

Funnily enough, the point of OKRs is to provide a framework for communication, planning, and accountability.

Particularly the last 2. Most companies, if they actually sit down and talk through their objectives honestly, and then get buy-in from the stakeholders and doers on the actual KRs and initiatives, will be forced to face and figure out the big issues in communication and accountability, at least by the time you have done OKRs for a year or so (your third or fourth planning cycle typically starts to feel like you have the hang of it).

And writing down your main goals ahead of time, with a clear owner, then reviewing after, is a good planning and accountability framework, no matter what name you give it.

As with anything good, there is snake oil to be had, and idiots will do OKRs wrong like they do everything else wrong. But I think it’s a useful tool in the hands of a competent and well-run company, particularly for startups that are getting into the stage where they need to start planning seriously, and don’t have an existing framework, say around 25-50 people.

Re: OKRs will never be enough

#36

Post by kerpotgh »

mattbuilds wrote: post #10

All these frameworks for managing people matter much less than creating a team of quality people. Think of it like sports. Sure a good manager or coach can get the most of the players on the team. They might even add tactics and play above their level. But when it comes down to it, what matters the most in the skill set of the players. The best coaching in the world isn’t going to help me and my friends beat a pro sp…

[dead]

Re: OKRs will never be enough

#37

Post by Jenk »

naijaboiler wrote: post #31
LambdaComplex wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Scrum/agile is exactly the same thing. The stricter and more documented the process The Agile manifesto specifically says "Individuals and interactions over processes and tools." If teams are forced to work in a certain way (e.g. scrum) then your organization isn't actually doing Agile.

I am tired of "you are doing Agile wrong" arguments. I hear it all the time. What's the point of a manifesto that only works when done perfectly right. A manifesto/process that isn't robust to imperfections has no role in a real world, which is always going to be imperfect

It's literally not a process yet you keep referring to it as one.

Re: OKRs will never be enough

#38

Post by pflenker »

ramraj07 wrote: post #33
pflenker wrote: post #5

I am so happy to work in a company that does not work with this business voodoo (and still delivers great results). All goal frameworks I have worked in, OKRs included, were a colossal waste of time.

What size is your company? What else can we do when a company has reached 1000+ employees?

About 17.000 employees.

Re: OKRs will never be enough

#39

Post by fshbbdssbbgdd »

LambdaComplex wrote: post #28
zemvpferreira wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my experience you have it right but backwards: These frameworks exist to help management manage teams without quality people. Scrum/agile is exactly the same thing. The stricter and more documented the process, the more fungible actual team-members are. That's important in places like bodyshops and non-software business where no self-respecting engineer with options would want to work, and places where monotonous…

> Scrum/agile is exactly the same thing. The stricter and more documented the process The Agile manifesto specifically says "Individuals and interactions over processes and tools." If teams are forced to work in a certain way (e.g. scrum) then your organization isn't actually doing Agile.

I’ll make sure to pull that one out next time someone tells me we have to implement agile in our origination. Ideally we could avoid making any changes at all.

Re: OKRs will never be enough

#40

Post by dilyevsky »

zemvpferreira wrote: post #20
mattbuilds wrote: post #10

All these frameworks for managing people matter much less than creating a team of quality people. Think of it like sports. Sure a good manager or coach can get the most of the players on the team. They might even add tactics and play above their level. But when it comes down to it, what matters the most in the skill set of the players. The best coaching in the world isn’t going to help me and my friends beat a pro sp…

In my experience you have it right but backwards: These frameworks exist to help management manage teams without quality people. Scrum/agile is exactly the same thing. The stricter and more documented the process, the more fungible actual team-members are. That's important in places like bodyshops and non-software business where no self-respecting engineer with options would want to work, and places where monotonous…

> That's important in places like bodyshops and non-software business where no self-respecting engineer with options would want to work, and places where monotonous quality matters more than brilliance. Keep em as far as I'm concerned.

Based on my experience that is happening in a lot more places than what you listed. Doesn’t help that price tag of experienced devs pushed dramatically upwards in the recent years

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