The next SOPA • Hacker News Board

Re: The next SOPA

#31

Post by jiggy2011 » Fri, Jan 20, 2012, 6:31 PM UTC

mlapida wrote: post #5

My thoughts exactly. While cutting out watching movies on Netfilx and TV is going to be difficult, I most definitely wont be purchasing any movies on iTunes, at Best Buy or going to a theater to watch them. If the tech community could band together to boycott these three huge money makers for the MPAA, we might see better results.

To be honest it wouldn't make much difference , tech community is a small % of the population and it's members probably commit a much higher than average rate of piracy anyway.

It would probably be more effective to stand outside a cinema waving banners.

Re: The next SOPA

#32

Post by rmc » Fri, Jan 20, 2012, 6:32 PM UTC

groggles wrote: post #8

Given that the author is Marco (and the article is on HN because it is from Marco Arment), I wonder what his boycott position is regarding Apple? Apple has a long history of supporting draconian IP policies, and has a business model built around controlling what you can do with what you bought. Financially Apple absolutely dwarfs the combined revenue of all of the MPAA realm. I don't mean to distract the conversation…

Although there are a lot of people here that like Apple products and support their policies, there are also lots of people here who use Free Software/Open Source. Lots of us are already boycotting lots of companies that don't fit what our ethics are.

I'm a hacker, Hacker News community member, and a FLOSS user/developer, and I oppose Apple's draconian policies.

Re: The next SOPA

#33

Post by sophacles » Fri, Jan 20, 2012, 6:32 PM UTC

jiggy2011 wrote: post #24

I don't quite understand. Are people suggesting that congress considers legislation primarily based on campaign contributions and that this is the same for both main parties? So they will only go against legislation proposed by lobbyists if they feel the votes they would lose would outweigh the benefit of those contributions to their next campaign? If that is the case then I'm sorry to say but your entire government…

It is exactly what they are suggesting, because that is how it works in the Land of the Free[1]. Bills are usually written by lobbiests, paid large sums by the entrenched industries, and sponsored by congressmen who received large donations from the industry. Unless there is a real threat to votes (aka job security) these are passed. The only things that get serious attention and debate are the ones where 2 industries are fighting via congress proxies.

Sad, but true.

[1] Free is not an absolute scale, but proportional to the amount of money you can spend - e.g. lots of money means more freedom to pass laws, to get out of trouble, to buy licenses to do restricted things, etc.

Re: The next SOPA

#34

Post by atonse » Fri, Jan 20, 2012, 6:32 PM UTC

kapitalx wrote: post #18

Anechoic wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Explain the reasoning why one company has the right to limit your freedoms while another doesn't? If you look at the specific examples Marco spelled out (" region locks and unskippable screens and encryption and criminalization of fair use.") those are restrictions that benefit only the studios and inconvenience the customer. The iOS restrictions Apple propagates benefit Apple, but for many customers (not HN types) t…

Your comparison is invalid. Apple's bootloader locks are a better comparison (Not referring to SIM lock which is provider mandated). Or the fact that you can't change batteries on your devices? Seems to me the purpose behind that is for you to change your device when the battery can't hold a good enough charge instead of just changing the batteries! How does that benefit the consumer? HTC removes bootloader locks: ht…

Non-removable batteries are an extreme edge case that simply don't adversely affect most consumers. In fact, they benefit most consumers with increased battery life.

I've never met a single person that actually used this feature (most people I know have their laptops plugged in most of the time).

On the other hand, I'd consider content DRM as a non-edge-case that does harm and affect a majority of consumers.

Let's not allow the noise of such edge-case complaints distract from more relevant restrictions that DO hurt consumers on a daily basis, like content DRM.

I've had multiple relatives show fear of plugging in their iPods because iTunes wipes out their iPod. My wife refused to plug in her iPod to her new laptop because she felt she'd lose the episodes she had bought on the iPod itself. And that's not an irrational fear. Even I had it before iCloud enabled you to redownload all your purchased content.

Re: The next SOPA

#35

Post by api » Fri, Jan 20, 2012, 6:34 PM UTC

mikeash wrote: post #23

iamandrus wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple has draconian restrictions on stuff like iOS for the user's sake (and for Apple's partially), and with the huge amount of users they obviously got that right. I'm not entirely sure what Apple's stance on SOPA is (I heard they supported it, but then I heard they didn't), but I don't think it would matter to them. They don't need to sue for piracy because they have the iTunes Store, which only distributes content…

I could say that the MPAA's restrictions are also for the viewer's sake, and with the huge amount of viewers they obviously got that right. I don't believe it, but I don't see where it's wrong but the equivalent for Apple is right. Personally, I think Apple's policies are more destructive. They're doing a pretty decent job of convincing an entire generation that locked-down, manufacturer-controlled computing is good.…

I agree, and I'd kind of like to boycott Apple at this point. But the problem is that I need to get my work done, and Apple has a monopoly.

On what?

On decent UI design and hardware/software that "just works."

Linux UIs are getting slightly better with Gnome 3 and Unity, but they still suck. (And they're getting better by copying Apple.) Windows UIs have been getting worse since XP. (All the good features in Windows 7 are copied from Apple, like their Expose equivalent.) Neither OS offers anything like the plug-and-go and design cleanliness that Apple offers.

It really makes a difference in terms of productivity. I know how to futz around with my machine to make it work, but I have better things to do with my time.

Until either a competitor or the open source community can offer good design -- which matters -- I am stuck with Apple.

BTW, I'll give you all a hint on good design: minimal is a synonym for good. Exterminate features.

Re: The next SOPA

#36

Post by rmc » Fri, Jan 20, 2012, 6:34 PM UTC

Anechoic wrote: post #14

groggles wrote: post #8

Given that the author is Marco (and the article is on HN because it is from Marco Arment), I wonder what his boycott position is regarding Apple? Apple has a long history of supporting draconian IP policies, and has a business model built around controlling what you can do with what you bought. Financially Apple absolutely dwarfs the combined revenue of all of the MPAA realm. I don't mean to distract the conversation…

Explain the reasoning why one company has the right to limit your freedoms while another doesn't? If you look at the specific examples Marco spelled out (" region locks and unskippable screens and encryption and criminalization of fair use.") those are restrictions that benefit only the studios and inconvenience the customer. The iOS restrictions Apple propagates benefit Apple, but for many customers (not HN types) t…

Apple also do a lot of these kinds of region locking restrictions, like locking iPhones to certain regions. Now iPhones are released in many many countries. But when it was just USA, people in the EU would be breaking the region locking to use an iPhone they bought in the USA.

Re: The next SOPA

#37

Post by chaz » Fri, Jan 20, 2012, 6:34 PM UTC

umjames wrote: post #12

r00fus wrote: post #2

A boycott is only successful if you know who owns what. Short of selling my HDTV (which would be way popular with my family), I don't see how I can avoid MPAA content.

You don't have to sell the TV, just don't watch movies on it. The harder part, is getting non-tech people to join your boycott. Good luck trying to tell people not to see the new Batman movie when it comes out. What would be good to know is if actors, directors, and other movie makers support the MPAA's actions. With the RIAA, you could sense that musicians often were at odds with the record companies that signed the…

I think you'll have to get rid of the TV. SOPA supporters include CBS, NBC, ABC, FOX, Viacom, ESPN, NFL, NBA, and the MLB. Also, the Directors Guild of America (DGA) and Screen Actors Guild (SAG) are supporters. The Writers Guild of America (WGA) does not support SOPA, however.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_organizations_with_offi... http://www.techdirt.com/articles/20111213/17373717070/writer...

Re: The next SOPA

#38

Post by Anechoic » Fri, Jan 20, 2012, 6:35 PM UTC

mikeash wrote: post #23

iamandrus wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple has draconian restrictions on stuff like iOS for the user's sake (and for Apple's partially), and with the huge amount of users they obviously got that right. I'm not entirely sure what Apple's stance on SOPA is (I heard they supported it, but then I heard they didn't), but I don't think it would matter to them. They don't need to sue for piracy because they have the iTunes Store, which only distributes content…

I could say that the MPAA's restrictions are also for the viewer's sake, and with the huge amount of viewers they obviously got that right. I don't believe it, but I don't see where it's wrong but the equivalent for Apple is right. Personally, I think Apple's policies are more destructive. They're doing a pretty decent job of convincing an entire generation that locked-down, manufacturer-controlled computing is good.…

They're doing a pretty decent job of convincing an entire generation that locked-down, manufacturer-controlled computing is good.

I've spent 20 years playing tech support to friends and family who have accidentally fubar'd their open computing devices. IME that has done far more to convince folks that locked-down, manufacturer-controlled computing is good moreso than anything Apple's done.

The conflict is framed as "open" vs "closed" but once someone can do "open done right for non-techies" that's where the industry will go.

Re: The next SOPA

#39

Post by AdamFernandez » Fri, Jan 20, 2012, 6:35 PM UTC

jiggy2011 wrote: post #27

AdamFernandez wrote: post #21

A solution I don't see being discussed much is MPAA and RIAA disruption. This is occurring on some platforms like YouTube, iTunes, and Spotify. If artists no longer need to use them as a middleman, they will cease to have money and power. Startups that disrupt these two, and are more profitable for artists, could wipe out this whole issue.

afaik RIAA member labels are still making money from spotify and iTunes. Taking the youtube example though, I suppose legislation like SOPA could wipe them out and neuter them enough.

I agree they are making money from these platforms, but independent artists are also making money and getting exposure using these platforms that would have been impossible a decade ago. If something is created that is more effective for artists (and possibly gives them a bigger cut..see Louis C.K.), this would be quite effective.

Re: The next SOPA

#40

Post by snowwrestler » Fri, Jan 20, 2012, 6:36 PM UTC

But I like to watch movies. I think a lot of movies are great--great enough to pay for them. Why should I shoot myself in the foot to keep someone else from shooting me in the foot?

This idea that the root cause of all bad legislation is political donations: it's wrong, and not supported by the data. The vast majority of political donations are made by people who are not lobbyists.

No one raised more political money in the history of this nation than Barack Obama during his presidential campaign, and the letter from his administration helped kill the bills. How about Rep. Issa and Sen. Wyden? Guess what, they got into office by spending donated money as well.

The problem isn't money, the problem is engagement. The tech industry, particularly on the Internet entrepreneurial side, has long prided itself on staying out of Washington. Well, now we see the consequence of that approach: it took a last-minute emergency OMG shitstorm to stop some bills--bills that could have easily been shaped, adjusted, or stopped much earlier if the industry had been engaged and paying attention.

The U.S. government is participatory. It will respond to citizen wishes, but only if citizens actively and continuously make their wishes known.

And it is inclusive. No matter how much you might think copyright should end, or that the MPAA should just go away forever and die, there are enough people who disagree with you that it's just not going to happen. Internet companies and advocates need to get comfortable with continuously engaging content companies in the legislative process, seeking common ground, and compromising.

IP law is not a winnable war. It is an ongoing negotiation that must be managed forever.