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KanjiVG – SVGs of Kanji character strokes including order, shape and direction

kanjivg.tagaini.net

31–40 of 72 posts

Re: KanjiVG – SVGs of Kanji character strokes including order, shape and direction

#31

I looked around and couldn't find any examples or demo of the SVGs on the website. This is the epitome of a project that would benefit from a visual representation.

https://kanjivg.tagaini.net/viewer.html?kanji=%E5%8B%95

Re: KanjiVG – SVGs of Kanji character strokes including order, shape and direction

#32

Why does stroke order matter? Is it to handle animating them and if each stroke isn’t the same colour? Sorry but I don’t know much about these kinds of characters.

It's partly just that it's tradition, but there are also practical reasons:

1) Chinese characters are traditionally/historically written with a brush, not a modern pen or pencil. Because brushes don't create uniform lines, there is a connection between the specific series of movements and the final appearance of the character (sort of like calligraphy pens). Basically, inconsistent movements tend to produce inconsistent-looking characters, so an agreed-upon standard aids in legibility.

2) Various components (most notably the "radicals") reoccur across many characters. Having a (mostly) consistent set of rules for how each component is written and in which order aids memorization because you're not learning every new character "from scratch".

3) Stroke order affects how mechanically efficient it is to write the character, which can be a pretty big deal when some of the more complex characters are upwards of a dozen strokes.

Re: KanjiVG – SVGs of Kanji character strokes including order, shape and direction

#33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because when you handwriting, the stroke order is very important.

Very important due to, tradition?

As a beginner Mandarin learner, my understanding is that historically, people wrote using the traditional stroke order, this informed what people think of as the aesthetically pleasing or "correct" way that the characters look. Now, if you want to write the characters in a legible and aesthetically pleasing way, the easiest method is to write them in the traditional stroke order. I think it's analogous to the way cursive writing in the west was taught, which informed the way it was written and what people thought of as the "correct" way to write cursive. If you wanted to learn to write in cursive, you could just look at existing cursive writing and try to copy it, but if for example you guessed that you should write it from right to left then you'd probably find it harder because cursive evolved to be written from left to right.

You can normally tell when someone uses the incorrect stroke order because things will be the wrong size. For example, when writing 因 you're supposed to write the outer ㄇ first, then the inner 大 and then the bottom horizontal stroke of the 口. If you start with the 大 then it's harder to write the outer 口 the right size.

Again, this is all from a beginner, so take it with a good amount of salt.

Re: KanjiVG – SVGs of Kanji character strokes including order, shape and direction

#34
post #22

This looks very much like Make Me A Hanzi (MMAH), which is exactly the same (Chinese) characters. It's just that Japanese knows those as Kanji. https://github.com/skishore/makemeahanzi

Definitely not exactly the same. Kanji and Hanzi are two different character sets - they overlap a lot, but each has common everyday characters that aren't in the other, and sometimes the "same" character is in both sets but written differently in various languages (e.g. 骨).

In case anyone is wondering why different glyphs have the same unicode code point, and how an app is supposed to decide which one to render... Well I don't know the reason for the first question actually, though many people appear to have some choice comments.

But as for the second question: for HTML documents, many tags have a lang attribute that decide which version of the glyph to render within that tag. Hacker News has lang="en", so it'll use a user setting to decide. For example, in Firefox' about:config, there's a setting called cjk_pref_fallback_order. If e.g. ja comes first, the little square inside the top square in 骨 is rendered on the right side, if any zh thing comes first, it's rendered on the left side.

Re: KanjiVG – SVGs of Kanji character strokes including order, shape and direction

#35
post #24

It’s too bad the pitch data out there for Japanese is either proprietary or pirated without attribution Another resource: https://github.com/CaptainDario/DaKanji-Single-Kanji-Recogni... someone made an interesting kanji recognition lib that hasn’t gotten attention

It seems like most people use the NHK pitch accent dictionary (there are TSVs of it online). I don't feel like it's particularly "pirated" though, can you really pirate the way people actually pronounce words?

NHK didn’t give that data an open license

Piracy is rampant. Whether lifting and reusing/redistributing copyrighted dictionaries or other stud materials, or pirating ebook/cdrom type content. That’s nice, but as a legit service provider it’s less accessible without just giving users their own ability to side load in materials

Re: KanjiVG – SVGs of Kanji character strokes including order, shape and direction

#36

Why does stroke order matter? Is it to handle animating them and if each stroke isn’t the same colour? Sorry but I don’t know much about these kinds of characters.

One thing is balance. If you draw characters out of the typical stroke order, things will often look lopsided or have weird proportions. When written with the proper order, proportions look nicer.

For example, think about writing a capital A. It’ll look different if you draw the middle bar first or if you draw the outer two lines first. F will also look different depending on whether you draw the vertical line or one of the horizontal lines first. Try a Q with the little bottom dash before drawing the circle. It’s not only weird but more difficult.

The difference in these characters is subtle, but you can notice it with your own writing. Now instead of 3 strokes to write a character, imagine those with 15 or even 28 strokes. The odd balance and proportions have cascading effects.

Re: KanjiVG – SVGs of Kanji character strokes including order, shape and direction

#37
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Definitely not exactly the same. Kanji and Hanzi are two different character sets - they overlap a lot, but each has common everyday characters that aren't in the other, and sometimes the "same" character is in both sets but written differently in various languages (e.g. 骨).

In case anyone is wondering why different glyphs have the same unicode code point, and how an app is supposed to decide which one to render... Well I don't know the reason for the first question actually, though many people appear to have some choice comments. But as for the second question: for HTML documents, many tags have a lang attribute that decide which version of the glyph to render within that tag. Hacker Ne…

the lil inside square is inconsistent in chinese

For instance traditional chinese in china will be left 過. Most computer systems will type this one

But in Taiwan they do right side. That said, i dont entirely understand how it works. You cant even copy\paste the right hand version into this comment box for instance- but you can see it on wiki. Maybe theyre separate fonts? Really not sure. Maybe somebody knows better

And simplified is entirely different 过

Re: KanjiVG – SVGs of Kanji character strokes including order, shape and direction

#38

It’s too bad the pitch data out there for Japanese is either proprietary or pirated without attribution Another resource: https://github.com/CaptainDario/DaKanji-Single-Kanji-Recogni... someone made an interesting kanji recognition lib that hasn’t gotten attention

> It’s too bad the pitch data out there for Japanese is either proprietary or pirated without attribution

I have serious doubts whether this kind of data is even copyrightable, as long as you're not redistributing it verbatim.

A specific selection of words with pitch data (e.g. the NKH pitch dictionary) might be copyrightable as there was creative expression involved in picking which exact words to put into the dictionary and in what order. But the data itself? A 猫 is always going to have a HLL pitch accent (in the standard accent). That's a fact. And facts itself are not copyrightable.

You can't copyright a phone book[1]. Quoting from the case:

> "Notwithstanding a valid copyright, a subsequent compiler remains free to use the facts contained in another's publication to aid in preparing a competing work, so long as the competing work does not feature the same selection and arrangement"

Sounds exactly like the pitch accent data dump that's been floating around which a lot of people use. (Not the verbatim NHK one; the other one.) They probably used the data from NHK's pitch dictionary to compile it along with a few other dictionaries. But does it feature the same selection and arrangement? Nope.

[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feist_Publications%2C_Inc.%2C_....

Re: KanjiVG – SVGs of Kanji character strokes including order, shape and direction

#40
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

(Caveat: there are a handful of cases where the Chinese and Japanese stroke orders differ, so take care treating these as equivalent.)

This. Traditional Chinese and Japanese are two seemingly similar but distinctly different things (the latter is forked from the former). Simplified Chinese is a whole different beast of corruption that is a fork of Traditional Chinese but otherwise not similar to either.

Kanji were also simplified but not necessarily the same way as simplified Chinese. Simplified Chinese also sometimes uses 'old' characters.

So sometimes modern Japanese is actually similar to simplified Chinese, sometimes it is similar to traditional Chinese, and sometimes it is unique. There is no simple 'fork'.

For instance, 円 (yen) is simplified Japanese and uniquely Japanese. It used to be same as traditional Chinese 圓. In Chinese it was separately simplified twice to its current form 元. So when you see prices in 円 in Japan and 元 in China it's actually the same original character simplified differently.

Interestingly, traditional Chinese 國 was simplified by reusing an old character and is now 国 both in Japanese and simplified Chinese but not in traditional Chinese.

Why not.

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