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New Hampshire on the cusp of enshrining software freedom into law

libreboot.org

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Re: New Hampshire on the cusp of enshrining software freedom into law

#31

Post by leereeves »

cjpearson wrote: post #9

That price is going to scare away most voters. $1000 per citizen for something that few people care about. You could argue that the cost estimation is a worst-case scenario. It assumes that 90% of the affected software will be made compliant, but it's also possible that they just use proprietary exception for most applications. It would cost much less in that case, but it would do so by abandoning the purpose of the…

> $1000 per citizen

How did they reach that figure? $1.4 billion dollars seems like far too much.

Edit: Interesting. Their methodology talks about rewriting all the state's public-facing server side applications to be open source. (Hence the cost.)

I thought the bill was just requiring that the public be able to use libre browsers and apps on their own devices to access state services, not that the state's server code had to be open source.

Re: New Hampshire on the cusp of enshrining software freedom into law

#32

Post by leepowers »

DoIT estimates the project will take at least 5 years to make the necessary changes resulting in a total state general fund cost of approximately $1.47 Billion .... Total Annual Cost $293,894,620

The Department states historically the cost of implementing a new application, whether replacing an existing application or implementing applications where none existed before, is three to seven times the cost of purchasing the software licenses. [1]

Do the people of New Hampshire believe so strongly in using non-proprietary software that they're willing to take on this extra cost? Is there widespread support and understanding of free or libre software amongst the population?

My experience has been that people have a transactional relationship to software, not a values-based one. Which is the main reason the various free software movements have yet to gain wide spread traction. People don't seem to care about how software is created and how it is licensed but whether it meets a particular need. (I need to file my taxes. I want to listen to music. I want to book a reservation, etc.) The challenge is not necessarily to "make software free" but to first get people to view software through a holistic, non-transactional lens.

The hurdle for this legislation will be convincing legislators to spend $1.47bn on a software replacement that doesn't add any additional features. I mean, are citizens really going to care that the web-based interface they use to file their taxes is no longer using proprietary software under the hood? If they're viewing software through the transactional lens then this plan will seem wasteful and non-productive.

[1] https://gencourt.state.nh.us/lsr_search/billText.aspx?id=188...

Re: New Hampshire on the cusp of enshrining software freedom into law

#33

Post by default-kramer »

cjpearson wrote: post #9

That price is going to scare away most voters. $1000 per citizen for something that few people care about. You could argue that the cost estimation is a worst-case scenario. It assumes that 90% of the affected software will be made compliant, but it's also possible that they just use proprietary exception for most applications. It would cost much less in that case, but it would do so by abandoning the purpose of the…

Yeah, these estimates blew me away. https://gencourt.state.nh.us/lsr_search/billText.aspx?id=188...

I guess there are all kinds of aspects of the government I'm not even aware of, but still... Everything I see is always browser-based with maybe some PDFs. What even is "NH FIRST (statewide ERP)"? Why does the general public interact with an ERP at all? I'm assuming this bill means that individuals should not be compelled to use proprietary software, but if it includes businesses also then the price tag makes more sense.

Re: New Hampshire on the cusp of enshrining software freedom into law

#34

Post by cjpearson »

leereeves wrote: post #31
cjpearson wrote: post #9

That price is going to scare away most voters. $1000 per citizen for something that few people care about. You could argue that the cost estimation is a worst-case scenario. It assumes that 90% of the affected software will be made compliant, but it's also possible that they just use proprietary exception for most applications. It would cost much less in that case, but it would do so by abandoning the purpose of the…

> $1000 per citizen How did they reach that figure? $1.4 billion dollars seems like far too much. Edit: Interesting. Their methodology talks about rewriting all the state's public-facing server side applications to be open source. (Hence the cost.) I thought the bill was just requiring that the public be able to use libre browsers and apps on their own devices to access state services, not that the state's server cod…

You can read their methodology in the bill text [0]. In short, there are 271 applications they found that must be brought into compliance and estimated the timeline and staffing costs based on similar recently completed projects.

[0] https://gencourt.state.nh.us/lsr_search/billText.aspx?id=188...

Re: New Hampshire on the cusp of enshrining software freedom into law

#35

Post by brk »

smeej wrote: post #27

Was a NH resident for years (recent ones, even). Can't think of a single time I had to interact with a state agency that required proprietary software. It would stand out if I had. The closest I can even think of is if they're using Zoom for remote hearings? Never had to have a hearing about anything. This seems like a solution in search of a problem.

Same. Former NH resident and have been a Linux / free software proponent for decades. For the most have not even had a functional Windows machine most of the time. Do not ever recall a scenario where I encountered some kind of proprietary software. We had multiple houses, cars, boats, dogs, other property. All kinds of things that I had to register or deal with the state on annually and can’t recall any issues.

Re: New Hampshire on the cusp of enshrining software freedom into law

#36

Post by LeFantome »

nhooyr wrote: post #5
micromacrofoot wrote: post #3

Calling this “libre software” instead of “free software” seems very self-serving > You can’t become a competent programmer by using Windows or MacOS. Linux or BSD are your only real choice, because that’s where all the interesting development happens. uh excuse me?

He's not wrong. Certainly when it comes to the full scope of being a programmer, Linux and BSD are your only real options. You can't easily add a new filesystem or screw with the kernel on macOS/windows without having to buy hundreds of dollars worth of their books and attend conferences. There isn't really any good detailed up to date documentation online about either. The docs for linux/bsd aren't perfect either bu…

Well, you cannot directly “screw with the kernel” on Windows. I am not sure how that is keeping you from growing as a developer exactly though. You can write your own kernel from scratch using Windows as your host platform. And, of course, you can build a filesystem to use with Windows. You can even make it Open Source as well which many have.

If you do want to “screw” with the system on Windows, one option would be to replace the MS stuff one DLL at a time. You might take a DLL from ReactOS for example and make it work with your version of Windows, extending or altering it as you desire.

Re: New Hampshire on the cusp of enshrining software freedom into law

#37

Post by TylerE »

CharlesW wrote: post #20
leahlibre wrote: post #2

A hearing for a bill will take place in New Hampshire on February 16th, 2023, for a bill that, if passed, will require state agencies to accommodate libre software users in public-facing applications, so that people do not have to use proprietary software to access state services on the internet. Your help is needed. More information is available in the linked article.

I read the article, but didn’t see a list of the proprietary software that’s required to interact with New Hampshirite state agencies. Are there examples of this problem?

It’s not as bad currently, but 10 years ago it wasn’t that unusual to find things like government and bank websites using freaking ActiveX.

These days I would imagine it means things like not publishing videos with (only) proprietary codecs, or using some sort of non-standard non-open 2fa or something.

Re: New Hampshire on the cusp of enshrining software freedom into law

#38

Post by nerdjon »

This feels like a case that I really need an article explaining this not from their prospective.

On here https://libreboot.org/news/usa-libre.html one of the examples given:

"Bans state agencies from using proprietary software - maybe this could include schools, in the future!"

"Bans state agencies from purchasing proprietary software if libre software exists, for a given task"

That seems... excessive and way to heavy handed. Doesn't that reduce the ability of a specific agency to choose either the best or just what people are familiar with (which means what people will be effective with) software for a given task/department?

Or am I completely misreading what this is saying?

Advocating and educating people on open source or free available software is a good thing, but straight up requiring its use if it exists seems really bad and kinda counter to the culture that this kind of software should have.

Re: New Hampshire on the cusp of enshrining software freedom into law

#39

Post by kerkeslager »

CharlesW wrote: post #20
leahlibre wrote: post #2

A hearing for a bill will take place in New Hampshire on February 16th, 2023, for a bill that, if passed, will require state agencies to accommodate libre software users in public-facing applications, so that people do not have to use proprietary software to access state services on the internet. Your help is needed. More information is available in the linked article.

I read the article, but didn’t see a list of the proprietary software that’s required to interact with New Hampshirite state agencies. Are there examples of this problem?

I'm not sure of New Hampshire's stage agencies, but the most common problem I've experiences interacting with government agencies is PDFs. The format is fairly well-designed to be easy to read so many libre software alternatives can view PDFs, but forms are another story. If a PDF form hasn't been tested in libre readers, it would be unwise to assume that it works in libre readers (or even some proprietary readers). And if testing discovers that it doesn't work, getting it to work isn't necessarily possible with the PDF editing tools available, as making their editors compatible with libre readers isn't exactly a priority for Adobe.

Re: New Hampshire on the cusp of enshrining software freedom into law

#40

Post by kevin_thibedeau »

kerkeslager wrote: post #39
CharlesW wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I read the article, but didn’t see a list of the proprietary software that’s required to interact with New Hampshirite state agencies. Are there examples of this problem?

I'm not sure of New Hampshire's stage agencies, but the most common problem I've experiences interacting with government agencies is PDFs. The format is fairly well-designed to be easy to read so many libre software alternatives can view PDFs, but forms are another story. If a PDF form hasn't been tested in libre readers, it would be unwise to assume that it works in libre readers (or even some proprietary readers).…

The problem is new style PDF forms implemented with JS. Old style PDF forms should be handled by open source readers.
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