Live data from Hacker News

The World is Full of Real People

jumpstartlab.com

31–40 of 69 posts

Re: The World is Full of Real People

#31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're right. However, there comes a point where we don't need yet another framework, or productivity app, or another project management tool. I also think the author is addressing people who build "thin value" startups as well, not just developer tools. Like Color, or Farmville, or Diaspora.

People who build things that "we don't need" get the message when no-one uses their product and they run out of money. But it's still a valuable process for them and everyone else, as long as they learn how to build things we do need.

Not necessarily. There are plenty of things we "don't need" but many of those succeed because they're part of what the developer community "wants". People can profit from these wants, making things developers don't necessarily need and "real people" neither need nor want.

The point of the article is that it's easier to build and profit from these wants, even if they're not truly beneficial to people outside of the developer community.

Re: The World is Full of Real People

#32
post #4
post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chrome isn't much better...

Sorry guys, I know the typography needs works. The orange-on-grey is tough on my color-blind eyes. We've been stretched thin getting ready for this conf (CodeMash) and launching Hungry Academy.

Ironic that you state you have no time due to working on a Developer Conference here...

Re: The World is Full of Real People

#33

What a load of crap. Everyone contributes to society according to their want and abilities. Software and technology by design help people live happier lives. The article starts from the valid assumption that some software is built for the echo chamber (it's a tiny amount proportionally) and generalize to absurd statements such as you lead a life of privilege. the problems of our world can’t be fixed with software Sof…

I don't think software development always contributes to the society, but that is true of most jobs out there. At least I can see some positive effects of software in general.

Re: The World is Full of Real People

#34
Most programmers are not pleasuring themselves by writing cute software for other programmers (that's merely a local HN echo chamber phenomenon). Nor are they busy solving real problems for the masses.

No, most programmers are probably slaving away writing .NET, PHP, or Java boilerplate for internal invoicing apps and such.

So what's needed is to free up the time and energy of programmers. Once they do that they'll be more motivated to do more useful stuff. I think the most realistic way there is individual empowerment through things like freelancing and lifestyle design.

Re: The World is Full of Real People

#35
post #9

The point that developers tend to live an extremely privileged life compared to the human average is an excellent one. However, I must strenuously object to the characterization of building tools for other developers as simply being self-pleasure. If developers really can do good things for society, then by helping other developers, am I not helping to achieve that goal? If software is useful, and I build something t…

You're right. However, there comes a point where we don't need yet another framework, or productivity app, or another project management tool. I also think the author is addressing people who build "thin value" startups as well, not just developer tools. Like Color, or Farmville, or Diaspora.

True, but on the other hand there is so much money circulating around doing pointless, dumb, immoral shit that even the most inane startup is saintly and ingenious in comparison. Pre-mature optimization, and all that.

Re: The World is Full of Real People

#36

This is kafkatrapping ( http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=2122 ): "The aim of the kafkatrap is to produce a kind of free-floating guilt in the subject, a conviction of sinfulness that can be manipulated by the operator to make the subject say and do things that are convenient to the operator’s personal, political, or religious goals. Ideally, the subject will then internalize these demands, and then become complicit in the k…

Great link - I think that this can be used as a mild form of coercion. However, in this case I have to object more to the target than the method. Developer tools, as mentioned above, can certainly be used to improve the world by making it easier to develop - sure.

My main gripe is with startups that make something that is a net-negative to society - which I'd argue Zynga, et al. are actually doing - just sucking money out of society. I don't care if people use it and like those games. Why not make educational games more addictive instead - easier said than done I know.

I think it's wrong to sit back an tell everyone the your choice of project is irrelevant to your social impact - it's irrefutably not!

Re: The World is Full of Real People

#37
post #9

The point that developers tend to live an extremely privileged life compared to the human average is an excellent one. However, I must strenuously object to the characterization of building tools for other developers as simply being self-pleasure. If developers really can do good things for society, then by helping other developers, am I not helping to achieve that goal? If software is useful, and I build something t…

You're right. However, there comes a point where we don't need yet another framework, or productivity app, or another project management tool. I also think the author is addressing people who build "thin value" startups as well, not just developer tools. Like Color, or Farmville, or Diaspora.

But what would help is a better framework, productivity app, or even project management tool.

Almost everyone who is building a new framework, etc is doing it because they think theirs will be better, at least for some particular use case.

Re: The World is Full of Real People

#38
post #26
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can strap on wings and jump out of a window and have a hard landing and break a few limbs and "get the message" that I shouldn't have jumped in the first place. To claim that jumping was a valuable process is a bit far fetched. I could have gotten that same lesson by simply taking a course in aerodynamics, or better yet, watching those black and white videos from the history channel of people in the 1900s doing sim…

The problem is then figuring out what's valuable. But being told that building an entire class of extremely useful tools is not valuable just gets it completely wrong. To take your analogy, it's like seeing some people jumping out of windows with wings and telling them, hey, stop trying to invent stuff. No, the correct message is, do your research. Developer tools can be extremely useful, you just have to make sure t…

> "This is completely different from saying that all developer tools are useless, which is what was said in the post."

That isn't what was said nor what was implied. Someday we will stop pretending that what we do is "extremely useful". A developer tool is nice. It is neat. It is cool. It is a bulletpoint on your resume. It is a repo in the github. It buils your brand. It scratches your itch. It generates revenue. It has a long tail. etc etc... But "extremely useful" ? To the real world full of real people ? Not in a million years. Let me look at my own work, at this very instant. I'm coding up a scala sobol sequence generator by solving a recurrence on a primitive polynomial of the Z2 field. Why in the world would I need this ? Well if I have a low discrepancy sobol sequence I can generate quasirandom montecarlo variates in scala instead of importance sampling. Why in the world would I need that ? Well with a million of those variates I can tell you with a lot of accuracy whether a commercial loan will default & what the expected loss would be ? Why in the world would I need that ? Well since we have a portfolio of millions of commercial loans, like every bank on the planet does, we need to compute the value at risk so we know how much capital to set aside in case of defaults. Why in the world would I need that ? Well since....I can go on and on, but at some point, I will be forced to acknowledge the very point the post was making - that the world is full of real people. These tools & algorithms are neat, but they are a workproduct of privilege. Everytime we build a piece of software, we are simply resorting to the rifleman's creed the marine core uses ( you know, the one that goes - This scala sobol sequence is mine. There are many like it, but this one is mine! ) So f*ing what ? It is definitely a life of privilege. It is far far removed from the world of real people. Personally there is nothing else I would rather do. But to pretend that what I'm doing is on the same plane of someone say vaccinating a kid with malaria in the tropics, or providing shelter to a homeless person etc is highly disingenuous. That would be reality. otoh coding software is simply privileged cs guys playing games with bits and bytes so that after the talent acquisition exit, we get to play games with vc money on techcrunch :) Lets not kid ourselves.

Re: The World is Full of Real People

#39
post #9

The point that developers tend to live an extremely privileged life compared to the human average is an excellent one. However, I must strenuously object to the characterization of building tools for other developers as simply being self-pleasure. If developers really can do good things for society, then by helping other developers, am I not helping to achieve that goal? If software is useful, and I build something t…

You're right. However, there comes a point where we don't need yet another framework, or productivity app, or another project management tool. I also think the author is addressing people who build "thin value" startups as well, not just developer tools. Like Color, or Farmville, or Diaspora.

A lot of people said, "we don't need yet another company making mobile phones" at the launch of the iPhone.

It's also tough to characterize what is a "good example" vs a "bad example" per the broad descriptions.

For example, if I release "yet another testing framework" and it helps some healthcare app get released a day sooner and, in that day saves a life. Worth it.

Re: The World is Full of Real People

#40
post #13

Bullshit. The reason we don't have to worry about getting a job is because a computer programmer provide value and because we are good at it. So no we don't live a life of privilege. We worked for, and earned, our position.

I partially agree, but only partially.

I worked hard to get to my position. I spent many hours up late studying in college, I spent and spend many hours up late after college learning the new technologies as they changed, and I spent and spend many hours at my desk late trying to help (in a small way) ensure that the company that is paying me succeeds. I have worked hard to get where I am, and I am aiming even higher.

But...I also had both luck and other people helping along the way. I was born in America, that was my biggest lucky break right there. I was born to parents, that while they didn't earn a lot of money, both invested time and money to help me learn when I was young.

When I was older, I had a great mentor that helped me make the transition from the Army to DBA. I still benefit from the time people in the SQL community spend on writing articles I learn from and even answering my direct questions on places like Ask.SQLServerCentral.com

So, yes I worked for and earned my position. But I know I had help along the way, and I think it is a good thing to turn around and giving a helping hand to others not so far up the path from time to time.

Post reply on HN