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Mr. Daisey and the Apple Factory

thisamericanlife.org

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Re: Mr. Daisey and the Apple Factory

#31

Post by jhancock »

glenra wrote: post #28
jQueryIsAwesome wrote: post #20

If one of you guys, someday happen to be wealthy; i highly recommend hiring people that work at Foxconn and other corporate farms of misery; they would probably be really, and i mean really the most loyal and thankful workers in the world if you can give them a decent salary for decent amount of hours.

They do get a decent salary by local standards, and (so long as they're being paid for it) tend to want all the hours they can get. There was a riot a few years ago in a chinese plant because the plant owners stopped giving so much overtime and the workers were upset that they lost out on the extra work. If you read Apple's status reports, one of the problems they seem to be battling is that these jobs are so good th…

They get an above average salary by local standards. I wouldn't call this decent. I'm not calling out Apple's manufacturing partners here, whom are better than most, just making the situation more clear.

edit: As to "huge bribes to middlemen", I live close to a Foxconn factory making Apple products in Chengdu. I've seen recruiters in a suburban (poor) farmer's market with a table setup recruiting people for Apple jobs. Yes, they were clear the jobs were for Foxconn making Apple products. I had my wife talk to one of them. Perhaps other factories at some times have been competitive to the point where employees paid fees to recruiters, but it doesn't appear to be happening where I live as of a few weeks ago.

Re: Mr. Daisey and the Apple Factory

#32

Post by jhancock »

jQueryIsAwesome wrote: post #20

If one of you guys, someday happen to be wealthy; i highly recommend hiring people that work at Foxconn and other corporate farms of misery; they would probably be really, and i mean really the most loyal and thankful workers in the world if you can give them a decent salary for decent amount of hours.

You can do this with many types of jobs in many locales. Pay better, treat them right, and cherry pick the best talent.

Re: Mr. Daisey and the Apple Factory

#35

Post by gerggerg »

It's interesting to listen to stories like this because they make it truly difficult to access your own feelings. You want to dislike or even hate it but a moment later you realize, in order to do so, you'd have to pass those judgements onto yourself. And so you kind of brush it off or feel like you're somehow doing the right thing by just hearing about it. There is no option other than simply not using electronics, or maybe only buying used electronics claiming the recycling karma offset. And whats kind of crazy is that I love programming. It's not only my job to use these devices, but I love to make them do new things. If I'm to continue to love it I have to live in a mind with forgetful acceptance or forced ignorance. I don't see a 3rd option.

Re: Mr. Daisey and the Apple Factory

#36

Post by jhancock »

gerggerg wrote: post #35

It's interesting to listen to stories like this because they make it truly difficult to access your own feelings. You want to dislike or even hate it but a moment later you realize, in order to do so, you'd have to pass those judgements onto yourself. And so you kind of brush it off or feel like you're somehow doing the right thing by just hearing about it. There is no option other than simply not using electronics,…

recycling karma. I went through this phase a few years back in Shanghai. I refused to buy anything new and would call a friend for his old iPod in a drawer when mine died. This worked for a bit but has limitations.

I'm back in China now, after a two year break to the U.S. Ten years in Shanghai was too much for me. I needed some perspective from home. Now I'm back, in Chengdu. My rules are simple. In all aspects of my life, where I can, I incrementally raise the labor bar and try to provide more than just a job. The IT projects I do, I tell my clients I only do high-end work and pay my talent well. And I do pay them well; generally 50% to 200% over their prior jobs. I also get to cherry pick the best talent and have very satisfied clients. This approach has its limitations and I'll adjust my approach when I reach their limits.

For you, there are two things you can do:

1 - Choose wisely who you give your money to. If you feel you can't easily raise the bar in the electronics you buy because all suppliers are playing the same game, do so in other aspects of your life. For many, there is choice in food and other local things you buy.

2 - Get involved more closely in who your elected representative are. These guys set the global and local trade rules. Let them know at the ballot box what you think.

Re: Mr. Daisey and the Apple Factory

#37

Post by pooriaazimi »

joering1 wrote: post #22
PakG1 wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Steve Jobs took it up publicly before he died about how the American government could make manufacturing in the US to be a more attractive option for companies like Apple.

I dont buy it. in the good ole days even before Standard Oil, fierce competition and W-2 (and IRS/SS in that matter), the reason behind owning any business was not to get rich or satisfy the board with higher dividend, but to give people job and ability to keep their families respected. to me its a simple math: Apple produce stuff in China saving 40% of production costs, then sells its goods in America putting 40% pr…

> to me its a simple math: Apple produce stuff in China saving 40% of production costs, then sells its goods in America putting 40% profit margin on it. I smell greed, regardless if people accept to be ripped of or not.

So, you expect Apple to manufacture in the States, and then sell it to you without a margin (over production costs)... And how exactly are those poor Apple engineers and Apple Store Employees are supposed to make money?

If some day Apple manufactures iDevices in America, then an iPad would cost $799, or Apple would go out of business.

This is not to say I'd like Apple's partner (Foxconn) to enslave chinese workers so I could buy an iPad cheaper... I'd be happy if my iPad would be $549 (instead of $499) AND those workers were receiving more money for their hard work.

Re: Mr. Daisey and the Apple Factory

#38

Post by theduexmachina »

pooriaazimi wrote: post #37
joering1 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dont buy it. in the good ole days even before Standard Oil, fierce competition and W-2 (and IRS/SS in that matter), the reason behind owning any business was not to get rich or satisfy the board with higher dividend, but to give people job and ability to keep their families respected. to me its a simple math: Apple produce stuff in China saving 40% of production costs, then sells its goods in America putting 40% pr…

> to me its a simple math: Apple produce stuff in China saving 40% of production costs, then sells its goods in America putting 40% profit margin on it. I smell greed, regardless if people accept to be ripped of or not. So, you expect Apple to manufacture in the States, and then sell it to you without a margin (over production costs)... And how exactly are those poor Apple engineers and Apple Store Employees are supp…

One of the reasons manufacturing costs are so high in the united states is due to labor costs. Put simply, America cannot beat the cost efficiency of Chinese production. Samsung however decided to put a plant into Austin for production of the A5 chip. (A Korean company building in Texas for a product assembled in China)

http://www.macrumors.com/2011/12/16/samsungs-new-texas-facto...

On a more cynical note, Apple's shareholders would not be happy if they could be making more profit by making it in China and selling it for $549. Another downsides to having shareholders run your company.

Re: Mr. Daisey and the Apple Factory

#39

Post by Fizzer »

pooriaazimi wrote: post #37
joering1 wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dont buy it. in the good ole days even before Standard Oil, fierce competition and W-2 (and IRS/SS in that matter), the reason behind owning any business was not to get rich or satisfy the board with higher dividend, but to give people job and ability to keep their families respected. to me its a simple math: Apple produce stuff in China saving 40% of production costs, then sells its goods in America putting 40% pr…

> to me its a simple math: Apple produce stuff in China saving 40% of production costs, then sells its goods in America putting 40% profit margin on it. I smell greed, regardless if people accept to be ripped of or not. So, you expect Apple to manufacture in the States, and then sell it to you without a margin (over production costs)... And how exactly are those poor Apple engineers and Apple Store Employees are supp…

> So, you expect Apple to manufacture in the States, and then sell it to you without a margin (over production costs)... And how exactly are those poor Apple engineers and Apple Store Employees are supposed to make money?

Apple has over $80 billion in cash. That's all left over after their employees have been paid. They could afford to manufacture their goods in a first-world country, sell their products at the same price, and still pay their employees the same rate.

Re: Mr. Daisey and the Apple Factory

#40

Post by yardie »

glenra wrote: post #24
alrs wrote: post #2

I find Steve Jobs repellent, but he was once committed to manufacturing hardware in the United States. The minor undercurrent of criticism since his passing has been Apple's manufacturing vendors in Asia. Forgotten is the drag on NeXT by its decision to build a factory in Fremont, CA. It was way overbuilt, and sucked up a lot of the money fronted by Canon and Ross Perot to keep NeXT alive while it was largely unable…

The original macintosh used to be built in Fremont too. http://www.onedigitallife.com/2006/03/21/flickr-find-mac-fac... As I recall, the US stupidly made that uncompetitive by enforcing anti-"dumping" duties on DRAM chips. We required that RAM sold to the US should be really expensive, to protect our (then largely hypothetical) local suppliers. So clone PCs built abroad could include cheap DRAM chips while Apple coul…

That is not correct. What happened was an earthquake in Taipei in the early 90s leveled most of the worlds RAM factories. This sent the price of RAM through the roof and took years to level off. Other IC manufacturers, sensing an opportunity, started making RAM as well. Then the factories in Taipei got back up and a price war ensued in the late 90s.

US memory makers had exited the arena long before. Now it was multinationals fighting other multinational corporations for an edge and they knew they could use the US court as their proxy.

PC manufacturing left the US because the labor was expensive not because of the price of any of the components. No matter what you heard the US still manufacturers a lot of things but: a) it's mostly automated, b) really highend specialty c) unlike the car factory, these manufacturing jobs really do require a degree.

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