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The Invention of Waterloo (Canada’s Technology Triangle)

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Re: The Invention of Waterloo (Canada’s Technology Triangle)

#31

Post by shazow »

_napw wrote: post #18
shazow wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Funny, I came here to say the exact opposite--how the four-months-at-a-time thing doesn't make any sense to me because I've always experienced the vast majority of learning during the 4-12 month range of my employment periods. University of Toronto (my alma mater) does 18 month coop terms which make marginally more sense to me. I'm generally anti-coop for people who would have no trouble finding a job when they gradu…

Before graduating from Waterloo, I had the opportunity to work in three different countries (Canada, USA, Japan), on everything from web services to embedded C. While I was a good student, and I doubt that I would have had any trouble finding a job with or without co-op, getting the breadth of experience was incredibly valuable - this would be something much harder to get after graduating. I generally dislike competi…

Alright, I am convinced that Waterloo students get more joy out of doing four four-month jobs than Toronto students get out of doing one eighteen-month job.

What I'm not convinced of is the resulting value-add to the student's career. The way I see it, the best things you can do to your career, in order of bestness:

1. Graduate as quickly as possible while freelancing summers, get the best job you can, quit after 18 months and get another different job to experience some diversity.

2. Take a year off in your 3rd year, work at a startup, then do the rest as #1.

3. Do an 18 month PEY term while being a student, get as much valuable experience out of it as you can, then graduate quickly and do the rest as #1.

4. Do four 4 month coop terms while being a student, experience as much diversity as you can, have as much fun as you can, then do the rest as #1.

5. Take a year or two to travel while being a student, have as much fun as you can, start collecting a jar of wisdom, then do the rest as #1.

Re: The Invention of Waterloo (Canada’s Technology Triangle)

#32

Post by karamdeep »

shazow wrote: post #24
potatolicious wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

UW alumnus here, IMO the PEY makes very little sense to both the student and employer. From the employer side, you're committing yourself to 18 months of full-time employment for someone who is an unknown value - I've heard this from multiple employers that the four-month terms are more attractive, since it's not nearly as damaging to make a bad hire. Worst case scenario you let the kid sit around and twiddle their t…

Correct me if I'm wrong but there is no employment obligation for 18 months. You go through the same interview process and you can get fired just like any other employee. This is no different than hiring any other employee. > Long terms lead to more conservative hiring, leading to less placements overall. I would argue that less higher-quality placement is a Good Thing. > From the student side, ... As a student, your…

I think you'd be surprised to see how much responsibility is given to co-op students after their first or second work term, and how well they are remunerated for doing so. My last work term was in Sunnyvale, came with a $5,000 US a month salary, $1000 monthly rent allowance, $400 a month car allowance, plus a travel allowance for 2 trips home. Upon graduation, most of my class went into "real" roles at their companies, none of this entry level bullshit that usually beckons for new grads who have never shipped code before and can't be trusted to handle anything north of double checking bug reports. Finally, the variety of work experiences helps you find a niche in terms of the types of projects and companies you'd like to be associated with post graduation. It's a giant red flag to see employees move on to new gigs every 4 months after graduation, so even if you hate your job you're somewhat obligated to stick around for at least a year to prove you're capable of fulfilling a "commitment". Why not start off doing something you already know you'll enjoy, with people you've worked with before, and a pay cheque that gives you proper credit for what you've already proven you can do?

Re: The Invention of Waterloo (Canada’s Technology Triangle)

#33

Post by wavephorm »

karamdeep wrote: post #29
wavephorm wrote: post #23

But there's no venture capital in Canada so it's nearly impossible to build a large tech company. Most successful Canadian startups sell out early because they know they'll hit major roadblocks. No capital plus a monopolistic telecom industry backed by government makes for a particularly hostile environment for small companies. Example: Kik got sued by Research in Motion IMMEDIATELY after receiving venture funding. T…

What a ridiculous statement. Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of challenges that entrepreneurs encounter when starting or scaling a business here, but it's time to stop using the crutch of VC/Government/Telecom interference to support the assertion that Canada is "an absolutely horrible place to do a technology start up. The bottom line is that if you still think this is the case, you haven't been paying attention…

I am speaking from my personal experience. None of the Canadian investment firms, or incubator even replied to my emails, let alone give any reasonable valuation. The Canadian YC-copycat incubators seem more like vultures that scoop 25% equity for $50K in seed funding which is pretty ridiculous compared to what you can can get in the US. I was denied SR&ED and am currently in the process of receiving venture capital and moving my startup, and all the technology I've developed, to California far away from this abysmal environment.

Re: The Invention of Waterloo (Canada’s Technology Triangle)

#34

Post by unavoidable »

shazow wrote: post #8
reso wrote: post #2

In my opinion, the engine of Waterloo's success is the university's unique co-op program. UW operates on a four-month rotating co-op system, each student does four months of school, then four months of internships, repeat for the duration of their degree. Many of us land in the Valley, or NY, or London, and bring what we learn back here. Most of my friends have multiple google/facebook/valley start-up internships on…

Funny, I came here to say the exact opposite--how the four-months-at-a-time thing doesn't make any sense to me because I've always experienced the vast majority of learning during the 4-12 month range of my employment periods. University of Toronto (my alma mater) does 18 month coop terms which make marginally more sense to me. I'm generally anti-coop for people who would have no trouble finding a job when they gradu…

I don't know where you're getting this 18-month number from. The maximum co-op term on PEY is 16-months, and a large number of people have opted for 12-month terms. They have also accepted terms as low as 8 months in some circumstances (lay-offs, overseas, other employment, etc.)

Re: The Invention of Waterloo (Canada’s Technology Triangle)

#35

Post by shazow »

mdkess wrote: post #16

The tragic thing is that software companies in Waterloo don't pay that well. Microsoft, Google, Amazon, Facebook, etc. are offering new college grads around $100k salary, while companies such as RIM and OpenText in the Waterloo region pay maybe $60k, so all of the talent in the region leaves. Having gone through Waterloo's co-op program, I found that Canadian software companies tend to be very management heavy, which…

The salary is scaled to the cost of living. Even Google doesn't pay the same if you're working in Mountain View or Waterloo or Australia.

$100k base salary in Waterloo adjusted for cost of living would be like an $180k base salary in Mountain View. (Disclaimer: From personal experience, don't have a citation on the exact ratio.)

I suspect people leave to Silicon Valley for the opportunities, tech culture, and weather far more than the salaries.

Re: The Invention of Waterloo (Canada’s Technology Triangle)

#36

Post by jasonjackson »

shazow wrote: post #24
potatolicious wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

UW alumnus here, IMO the PEY makes very little sense to both the student and employer. From the employer side, you're committing yourself to 18 months of full-time employment for someone who is an unknown value - I've heard this from multiple employers that the four-month terms are more attractive, since it's not nearly as damaging to make a bad hire. Worst case scenario you let the kid sit around and twiddle their t…

Correct me if I'm wrong but there is no employment obligation for 18 months. You go through the same interview process and you can get fired just like any other employee. This is no different than hiring any other employee. > Long terms lead to more conservative hiring, leading to less placements overall. I would argue that less higher-quality placement is a Good Thing. > From the student side, ... As a student, your…

There's no single correct answer here, because each person operates under unique long-term goals.

If your goal is to build a large business network, then -probabilistically- more jobs is better than fewer. By virtues of UW CO-OP, whenever I meet someone new in silicon valley, very frequently we have mutual friends.

Re: The Invention of Waterloo (Canada’s Technology Triangle)

#37

Post by potatolicious »

shazow wrote: post #31
_napw wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Before graduating from Waterloo, I had the opportunity to work in three different countries (Canada, USA, Japan), on everything from web services to embedded C. While I was a good student, and I doubt that I would have had any trouble finding a job with or without co-op, getting the breadth of experience was incredibly valuable - this would be something much harder to get after graduating. I generally dislike competi…

Alright, I am convinced that Waterloo students get more joy out of doing four four-month jobs than Toronto students get out of doing one eighteen-month job. What I'm not convinced of is the resulting value-add to the student's career. The way I see it, the best things you can do to your career, in order of bestness: 1. Graduate as quickly as possible while freelancing summers, get the best job you can, quit after 18…

> "quit after 18 months and get another different job to experience some diversity"

You really can't sample very much after you graduate. Let's be honest, in almost all places in this industry, hopping around every 1-1.5 years looks ugly after a while. You can pull it off once or twice before it starts reflecting in your interviews.

That's the point other posters are making - more, shorter co-op terms is basically the penalty-free way of job-hopping and sampling everything. It's also a way of rapidly expanding your professional network and filling it with people who can vouch for your work.

Re: The Invention of Waterloo (Canada’s Technology Triangle)

#38

Post by abrichr »

wavephorm wrote: post #33
karamdeep wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What a ridiculous statement. Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of challenges that entrepreneurs encounter when starting or scaling a business here, but it's time to stop using the crutch of VC/Government/Telecom interference to support the assertion that Canada is "an absolutely horrible place to do a technology start up. The bottom line is that if you still think this is the case, you haven't been paying attention…

I am speaking from my personal experience. None of the Canadian investment firms, or incubator even replied to my emails, let alone give any reasonable valuation. The Canadian YC-copycat incubators seem more like vultures that scoop 25% equity for $50K in seed funding which is pretty ridiculous compared to what you can can get in the US. I was denied SR&ED and am currently in the process of receiving venture capital…

I think you need to distinguish between the types of startups that are encouraged in Canada and in the US. For example, the MaRS (Medical and Related Science) Discovery District (http://www.marsdd.com/) is the largest incubator of its kind in the world.

Re: The Invention of Waterloo (Canada’s Technology Triangle)

#39

Post by sabraham »

wwhchung wrote: post #28

As a former Waterloo co-op (and founder of a YC company), I'd have to say that the 4 month co-op program added a LOT of value. I learned more in each of those 4 month co-op terms than each of my school terms. Additionally, from all my interviewing experience (i.e. interviewing for full time hire's), those that come from a co-op program (any co-op program, even UofT's) are way better prepared and have much more practi…

have a link for the event?

Re: The Invention of Waterloo (Canada’s Technology Triangle)

#40

Post by karamdeep »

wavephorm wrote: post #33
karamdeep wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What a ridiculous statement. Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of challenges that entrepreneurs encounter when starting or scaling a business here, but it's time to stop using the crutch of VC/Government/Telecom interference to support the assertion that Canada is "an absolutely horrible place to do a technology start up. The bottom line is that if you still think this is the case, you haven't been paying attention…

I am speaking from my personal experience. None of the Canadian investment firms, or incubator even replied to my emails, let alone give any reasonable valuation. The Canadian YC-copycat incubators seem more like vultures that scoop 25% equity for $50K in seed funding which is pretty ridiculous compared to what you can can get in the US. I was denied SR&ED and am currently in the process of receiving venture capital…

One bad experience should not tarnish an entire national ecosystem. There are incubators like GrowLabs and FoundersFuel who offer terms that are on par or better than YC, and there are investment firms that have invested hundreds of millions of dollars into Canadian startups over the past few years, and SR&ED claims seem to function smoothly for all our portfolio companies. I obviously don't know the details of your particular case, but don't mistake it for the status quo.
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