Only the richest ancient Athenians paid taxes • Hacker News Board

Re: Only the richest ancient Athenians paid taxes

#31

Post by WalterBright » Sat, Jan 07, 2023, 3:50 AM UTC

__MatrixMan__ wrote: post #25

WheelsAtLarge wrote: post #9

This is a case of apples and oranges. Modern people expect more from their government than the Athenians so more people need to pay taxes to finance it. I agree that the more you earn the more you should pay in terms of percentage of income but the idea that only the rich need to pay taxes is unmaintainable. Also, when it comes to taxes no one is rich, just ask the high income people. There are plenty of people that…

> the idea that only the rich need to pay taxes is unmaintainable I'm not so sure. Taxes are for lots of things, but one of them is making sure a power hungry psycopath doesn't set themself up as king. We might end up spending less of it on weapons that cost thousands of dollars every time you pull the trigger if we taxed the problem away before it could gain momentum.

High taxes historically result in revolts.

Re: Only the richest ancient Athenians paid taxes

#32

Post by primis » Sat, Jan 07, 2023, 3:51 AM UTC

tempsy wrote: post #17

carbocation wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No? Just plugging this in - with $70k income, you pay $8,142 in federal tax/withholding, a 14% effective tax rate.

this doesn’t factor in the $12k deduction and saving in a tax shielded 401k or IRA though which should both dramatically reduce adjusted income come tax time plus tax advantages you get when you are married and have dependents

When you're making 50-70k / year you're probably not able to put money in a 401k, especially in the event you have a single income 3 or 4 person household.

This is also missing the point slightly. You shouldn't have to rely on tax day returns.

Re: Only the richest ancient Athenians paid taxes

#33

Post by Retric » Sat, Jan 07, 2023, 3:52 AM UTC

WalterBright wrote: post #30

voisin wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What they have is post-tax. What? No. Net worth amounts are quoted in approximate pre-tax amounts. The vast bulk of which, for the 1%, are deferred capital gains taxes. The rest of us don’t get the ability to defer taxes until we feel like it, and capital gains are taxed at a lower rate too because… just because.

You can defer taxes with 401ks, IRAs, Roth IRAs, and investing in stocks, a house, anything you have that appreciates in value. 40% of Americans have investments in stocks, it is hardly confined to 1%.

Contributions to a Roth IRA are not tax-deductible and early withdrawals are both taxed and penalized. You don’t just pay taxes as normal income when you take an early withdrawal from a 401k they also tack on a 10% penalty making such investments unusually risky.

Untaxed capital gains on the other hand is just a free zero interest loan.

Anyway, having stocks is irrelevant here. What matters is for tax burden is what percentage of people’s income comes from capital gains.

Re: Only the richest ancient Athenians paid taxes

#34

Post by User23 » Sat, Jan 07, 2023, 3:52 AM UTC

They were liable for military service though. Being forced to go die fighting Spartans may not have an easily assigned monetary value, but it's certainly a civic obligation at least on par with tax paying.

Re: Only the richest ancient Athenians paid taxes

#35

Post by monero-xmr » Sat, Jan 07, 2023, 3:52 AM UTC

__MatrixMan__ wrote: post #25

WheelsAtLarge wrote: post #9

This is a case of apples and oranges. Modern people expect more from their government than the Athenians so more people need to pay taxes to finance it. I agree that the more you earn the more you should pay in terms of percentage of income but the idea that only the rich need to pay taxes is unmaintainable. Also, when it comes to taxes no one is rich, just ask the high income people. There are plenty of people that…

> the idea that only the rich need to pay taxes is unmaintainable I'm not so sure. Taxes are for lots of things, but one of them is making sure a power hungry psycopath doesn't set themself up as king. We might end up spending less of it on weapons that cost thousands of dollars every time you pull the trigger if we taxed the problem away before it could gain momentum.

Interesting - a similar argument is that if you removed the ability for governments to arbitrarily print money, and they actually had to tax citizens and explain to them what it was being spent on, wars would be way less popular and occur less often.

You seem to think the dangerous psychopath is the independently wealthy rich person. They may be a psychopath, but the true danger is the psychopath who also gains government power - that is the real danger, which the US Constitution wisely put limits on. I believe power often corrupts, and I'm way more afraid of the bureaucrat than the aristocrat.

Re: Only the richest ancient Athenians paid taxes

#36

Post by lvass » Sat, Jan 07, 2023, 3:52 AM UTC

voisin wrote: post #28

Wolfenstein98k wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't matter. You don't get taxed on how much you have, you get taxed on every dollar as it comes in. What they have is post-tax. You can't just eye up what they have left over as if it has never been taxed.

> What they have is post-tax. What? No. Net worth amounts are quoted in approximate pre-tax amounts. The vast bulk of which, for the 1%, are deferred capital gains taxes. The rest of us don’t get the ability to defer taxes until we feel like it, and capital gains are taxed at a lower rate too because… just because.

How could a pre-tax quote be what a person has, if legally they can't have it all? I know clickbait articles love equating those, but we can do better.

Re: Only the richest ancient Athenians paid taxes

#37

Post by beedeebeedee » Sat, Jan 07, 2023, 3:55 AM UTC

Wolfenstein98k wrote: post #24

ggm wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A basis for argument by low tax fanatics that think a modern Athenian state is possible, drugs, TV shows, VLSI and togas, all in with jets and retsina. UK income tax was notoriously applied as a temporary expedient. The low tax fans want a return to the pre Victorian levels of poverty that went hand in hand with the non-welfare state.

I don't think so. Low tax advocates want a more streamlined government that looks after core functions (managing trash, police, etc) rather than what it has taken on today (entire multimillion dollar agencies tasked with getting more women into high status jobs, regulation of the size and shape of cabbages, etc) The idea that "people who want less tax than I do just crave widespread poverty" is a sign you have an ide…

> The idea that "people who want less tax than I do just crave widespread poverty" is a sign you have an ideological brainworm. No one thinks like that.

Plenty of people think that. They might not admit it publicly (or even admit the full implications to themselves), but they still think it, and more importantly, try to act on it.

Re: Only the richest ancient Athenians paid taxes

#38

Post by shoo » Sat, Jan 07, 2023, 3:58 AM UTC

alxmng wrote: post #20

utopcell wrote: post #16

The system did not rely on honor alone to work. If a rich citizen was tapped to provide his services, he could either perform them or choose another, richer, citizen to fund the city. That citizen could either accept the honor, or swap wealth with the original citizen and pass back the honor.

That’s interesting. Did anyone actually choose to swap wealth? I can’t imagine why one would choose that option.

you might choose it to avoid the honor of doing a job you'd prefer not to do.

Re: Only the richest ancient Athenians paid taxes

#39

Post by __MatrixMan__ » Sat, Jan 07, 2023, 3:59 AM UTC

monero-xmr wrote: post #35

__MatrixMan__ wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the idea that only the rich need to pay taxes is unmaintainable I'm not so sure. Taxes are for lots of things, but one of them is making sure a power hungry psycopath doesn't set themself up as king. We might end up spending less of it on weapons that cost thousands of dollars every time you pull the trigger if we taxed the problem away before it could gain momentum.

Interesting - a similar argument is that if you removed the ability for governments to arbitrarily print money, and they actually had to tax citizens and explain to them what it was being spent on, wars would be way less popular and occur less often. You seem to think the dangerous psychopath is the independently wealthy rich person. They may be a psychopath, but the true danger is the psychopath who also gains gover…

Power is power. I'm not really trying to split hairs about what color it is. I'm just saying that we'd need to worry about the commons less (whether that's taxing the rich or putting a misbehaving government in check) if we were a bit more hygenic about how much power we allow to concentrate in the first place.

Re: Only the richest ancient Athenians paid taxes

#40

Post by __MatrixMan__ » Sat, Jan 07, 2023, 4:00 AM UTC

WalterBright wrote: post #31

__MatrixMan__ wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the idea that only the rich need to pay taxes is unmaintainable I'm not so sure. Taxes are for lots of things, but one of them is making sure a power hungry psycopath doesn't set themself up as king. We might end up spending less of it on weapons that cost thousands of dollars every time you pull the trigger if we taxed the problem away before it could gain momentum.

High taxes historically result in revolts.

Even when they're only high for 1% of the population?