Mazda has tested a synthetic fuel in an unmodified MX5 on a 1000-mile road trip • Hacker News Board

Re: Mazda has tested a synthetic fuel in an unmodified MX5 on a 1000-mile road trip

#31

Post by i_am_proteus » Mon, Jan 02, 2023, 2:22 PM UTC

PaulHoule wrote: post #7

There is no surprise that synthetic fuels work. They worked for the nazis in the 1940s and they still produce them in South Africa, Qatar and other places. In fact in a lot of ways they are better than today’s gasolines because they have a low aromatic and olefin content. The question revolve around affordability and sustainability. Most of the interest was driven by fears we would be running out of oil, now it is dr…

Yes, and: the question revolves around total financial and material capital needed to transition away from fossil fuels.

Synthetic fuels are potentially valuable because they allow existing capital assets (internal combustion engines and the industry that produces them, fuel distribution infrastructure) to continue to be used.

I am glad to see research into them continue- it's difficult to predict what will scale well economically in five or ten or thirty years.

Re: Mazda has tested a synthetic fuel in an unmodified MX5 on a 1000-mile road trip

#32

Post by kremi » Mon, Jan 02, 2023, 2:23 PM UTC

marcus0x62 wrote: post #25

denton-scratch wrote: post #8

> Simply put, the synthetic fuel operated much like normal gasoline would have, without the emission drawbacks of the latter. Hmmm. The fuel is hydrocarbons; so the emissions are at minimum CO2 and particulates.

The usual theory here is that fuels made from plants are carbon neutral in that while the fuel produces CO2 when burned, the plant it was made from consumed an equivalent amount of CO2 while alive. (Which, even if true ignores particulate and NOX emissions. See also: green washing.)

Some more drawbacks : 1. the plants are usually grown using fertilizers that are made out of, ironically, fossil fuels. 2. the process of turning the plant into fuel might also create emissions that need to be taken into account.

Re: Mazda has tested a synthetic fuel in an unmodified MX5 on a 1000-mile road trip

#33

Post by pfdietz » Mon, Jan 02, 2023, 2:23 PM UTC

marcus0x62 wrote: post #21

1) How much of this fuel could be made at scale — how much of the type of agricultural waste they use is available worldwide? 2) Petrol is great for passenger cars, but the world runs on diesel and fuels that are more or less equivalent to diesel, like Jet-1A. Can they make that?

Companies have made drop-in compatible jet fuel from biomass.

https://www.virent.com/

Re: Mazda has tested a synthetic fuel in an unmodified MX5 on a 1000-mile road trip

#34

Post by firecall » Mon, Jan 02, 2023, 2:24 PM UTC

marcus0x62 wrote: post #21

1) How much of this fuel could be made at scale — how much of the type of agricultural waste they use is available worldwide? 2) Petrol is great for passenger cars, but the world runs on diesel and fuels that are more or less equivalent to diesel, like Jet-1A. Can they make that?

You can run a diesel engine on vegetable oil!

Re: Mazda has tested a synthetic fuel in an unmodified MX5 on a 1000-mile road trip

#35

Post by mrtksn » Mon, Jan 02, 2023, 2:26 PM UTC

PaulHoule wrote: post #7

There is no surprise that synthetic fuels work. They worked for the nazis in the 1940s and they still produce them in South Africa, Qatar and other places. In fact in a lot of ways they are better than today’s gasolines because they have a low aromatic and olefin content. The question revolve around affordability and sustainability. Most of the interest was driven by fears we would be running out of oil, now it is dr…

Well, it's kind of obvious that the supplies of oil aren't infinite, isn't it? Is there even a theory that the oil is infinite? The peak oil is about timing and and cost, maybe it didn't happen according to the predictions but it will definitely happen. Besides the environmental concerns it also seems wasteful to burn away the stuff that is used for so many more things.

The synthetic stuff is interesting because it may actually be practically infinite thanks to the fusion reactor in the skies. That is because storing the energy from wind and solar in form of chemical energy solves the storage problem of the renewables. If extracting energy from that storage without polluting the environment becomes viable it can be huge.

Re: Mazda has tested a synthetic fuel in an unmodified MX5 on a 1000-mile road trip

#36

Post by criley2 » Mon, Jan 02, 2023, 2:26 PM UTC

PaulHoule wrote: post #7

There is no surprise that synthetic fuels work. They worked for the nazis in the 1940s and they still produce them in South Africa, Qatar and other places. In fact in a lot of ways they are better than today’s gasolines because they have a low aromatic and olefin content. The question revolve around affordability and sustainability. Most of the interest was driven by fears we would be running out of oil, now it is dr…

I think it's more about finding an offramp for motorsports and classic cars (and some rural machinery) that are against electrification for a variety of reasons (both legitimate and illegitimate).

I don't think there is anyone at all that thinks turning agricultural waste into carbon neutral synthetic fuel for ICE has anything to do with "oil not running out" (which it absolutely is, demand is at all time highs, while production is at 30 year lows and no new major oilfield has opened in the lifespan of most people reading this, just saying).

Re: Mazda has tested a synthetic fuel in an unmodified MX5 on a 1000-mile road trip

#37

Post by twawaaay » Mon, Jan 02, 2023, 2:29 PM UTC

theshrike79 wrote: post #13

PaulHoule wrote: post #7

There is no surprise that synthetic fuels work. They worked for the nazis in the 1940s and they still produce them in South Africa, Qatar and other places. In fact in a lot of ways they are better than today’s gasolines because they have a low aromatic and olefin content. The question revolve around affordability and sustainability. Most of the interest was driven by fears we would be running out of oil, now it is dr…

Current synthetic fuels cost around 10€/litre, which comes to around $37/gallon. Not really viable for day to day use yet.

Not viable yet.

But with greater adoption and more focus the prices are bound to fall.

And the prices of alternatives will be rising, both electricity and hydrocarbon fuels.

Also EVs seem to not be the answer to everything. If you live in a colder climate, out of grid or you need to drive long distances, it is not clear when on whether EVs will become practical for you.

Re: Mazda has tested a synthetic fuel in an unmodified MX5 on a 1000-mile road trip

#38

Post by jeroenhd » Mon, Jan 02, 2023, 2:29 PM UTC

marcus0x62 wrote: post #25

denton-scratch wrote: post #8

> Simply put, the synthetic fuel operated much like normal gasoline would have, without the emission drawbacks of the latter. Hmmm. The fuel is hydrocarbons; so the emissions are at minimum CO2 and particulates.

The usual theory here is that fuels made from plants are carbon neutral in that while the fuel produces CO2 when burned, the plant it was made from consumed an equivalent amount of CO2 while alive. (Which, even if true ignores particulate and NOX emissions. See also: green washing.)

This also ignores a dire problem humanity has created for itself: massive amounts of arable land wasted on fuel crops rather than food for people.

It's similar to the farming industry producing incredible amounts of food just to feed cattle rather than to feed people. Not all crops grow on all land, of course, but as long as there are large scale famines in the world, I think it's immoral to dedicate so much land towards inedible foodstuffs.

We're already burning forests under the guise of "renewable fuels" that assume we've assured that the forests are allowed grow back the next 100 years even when biofuels are no longer profitable.

There are good reasons to rid ourselves from fossil fuels where we can, not just because of global warming but also because of political reasons (the oil states getting away with literal murder and a blind eye being turned towards their funding of what would become 9/11, for one). However, I fear that these plant based "alternatives" will be quickly bought up by the oil industry, touted as the future of green energy, and used to postpone greener alternatives to the internal combustion engine yet another decade.

Re: Mazda has tested a synthetic fuel in an unmodified MX5 on a 1000-mile road trip

#39

Post by fsh » Mon, Jan 02, 2023, 2:29 PM UTC

I don't think that this is a very good application for the technology. Compared to lithium batteries, synthetic fuels have much higher energy density, but much lower energy efficiency. Modern EVs achieve plenty of range, charge quickly, and the somewhat larger weight doesn't really matter in a vehicle, unless you want to race it.

However, I am quite excited about using them for CO2-neutral long-distance flights. Being able to reach any place on earth in 24h is awesome, and there is simply no battery technology that can power a practical airplane.

Re: Mazda has tested a synthetic fuel in an unmodified MX5 on a 1000-mile road trip

#40

Post by PaulHoule » Mon, Jan 02, 2023, 2:31 PM UTC

theshrike79 wrote: post #13

PaulHoule wrote: post #7

There is no surprise that synthetic fuels work. They worked for the nazis in the 1940s and they still produce them in South Africa, Qatar and other places. In fact in a lot of ways they are better than today’s gasolines because they have a low aromatic and olefin content. The question revolve around affordability and sustainability. Most of the interest was driven by fears we would be running out of oil, now it is dr…

Current synthetic fuels cost around 10€/litre, which comes to around $37/gallon. Not really viable for day to day use yet.

Qatar claims their Methanol-to-Gasoline based factory is profitable at a world price of $40 a barrel based on natural gas as a feed stock.

What people are hoping for today is to get CO₂ from the atmosphere and hydrogen from H₂O with electricity from solar, wind or nuclear. (Though w/ nuclear you might use thermochemical hydrogen if you can get the temperature up)

The best use case for that I've seen is that the US Navy would like to synthesize jet fuel on aircraft carriers so they don't have to slow down to take on fuel from a tanker -- delivering fuel to an aircraft carrier has to cost more than it costs at your local gas station.

Also I think there is more interest in synthetic fuel for airplanes than cars. That Mazda could almost as easily have been run on ethanol, methanol or maybe even butanol. Even methane isn't that hard. Diesel engines can be run on Dimethyl Ether. Single-entity fuels are more efficient to make than synthetic fuels based on long-chain hydrocarbons.

Aviation, on the other hand, is a place where innovation goes to die, where airlines struggle to replace obsolete electronics, where the #1 and #2 aircraft in the world were designed in 1967 and 1982, etc. (... it wouldn't even be legal to sell a car based on a 1982 design!)