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The Berlin Egyptian Museum’s scan of the Bust of Nefertiti (2017)

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Re: The Berlin Egyptian Museum’s scan of the Bust of Nefertiti (2017)

#31

Post by kmeisthax »

mod50ack wrote: post #26
newaccount74 wrote: post #14

I have some experience with bringing museum exhibits online, and unfortunately this experience is total standard. Museums think they own their artefacts, and they want to control who gets to "publish" them. Typically museums have a few archaeologists that they have close ties with who get the privilege of publishing stuff. If some random person comes along, god forbid from abroad, they will try everything to stop you…

Yep, I work in this area and museums/libraries often believe that they have the right to prevent you from using the creative works whose originals they physically hold. This is usually not the case. And in the vast majority of countries, digitizations of at least 2D works aren't able to be copyrighted.

Europe actually does have a few countries that claim that photographing or digitizing a public domain work recopyrights it. They also have neighboring rights and database rights regimes on top of that.

If you wanna know more, you should look at the one time the National Portrait Gallery threatened to sue Wikimedia[0] for having an archive of uncopyrighted material. It went nowhere - primarily because the US has soundly and firmly rejected the nonsense that "sweat of the brow" creates copyright. Hell, even the EU doesn't think you can recopyright public domain works this way. But the UK-hosted NPG is still asserting primacy of UK law over the whole Internet to this day.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Portrait_Gallery_and_...

Re: The Berlin Egyptian Museum’s scan of the Bust of Nefertiti (2017)

#33

Post by meibo »

the_gipsy wrote: post #28

I remember trying to photograph the real bust (no flash of course) and a guard stepping in the way telling me it's prohibited.

When was this, I wonder? I definitely was able to take pictures when I visited in 2019.

Might depend on the person watching it, as museums tend to go... I witnessed someone nearly being ejected from the vatican museum recently, when they were visibly but not disrespectfully amused about a painting that was clearly made to elicit that response. Another person tried to take a picture and had to give their phone to the guard, who then proceeded to delete it and check if they took any others. I would've loved to watch that room for a while longer to see what else that guy was up to.

Re: The Berlin Egyptian Museum’s scan of the Bust of Nefertiti (2017)

#34

Post by Daub »

the_gipsy wrote: post #28

I remember trying to photograph the real bust (no flash of course) and a guard stepping in the way telling me it's prohibited.

I was once forbidden to even draw in an art museum. I thought it was some mistake, an over zealous interpretation of the law. But the museum director herself confirmed it. Still can’t believe it.

Re: The Berlin Egyptian Museum’s scan of the Bust of Nefertiti (2017)

#35

Post by Daub »

I have published a book which required many photos of famous paintings. The paintings themselves were no longer covered by copyright, but the photos of the paintings were. In the end I had to swop out half of them for cc images, in some cases of different paintings.

Re: The Berlin Egyptian Museum’s scan of the Bust of Nefertiti (2017)

#37

Post by mod50ack »

kmeisthax wrote: post #31
mod50ack wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep, I work in this area and museums/libraries often believe that they have the right to prevent you from using the creative works whose originals they physically hold. This is usually not the case. And in the vast majority of countries, digitizations of at least 2D works aren't able to be copyrighted.

Europe actually does have a few countries that claim that photographing or digitizing a public domain work recopyrights it. They also have neighboring rights and database rights regimes on top of that. If you wanna know more, you should look at the one time the National Portrait Gallery threatened to sue Wikimedia[0] for having an archive of uncopyrighted material. It went nowhere - primarily because the US has sound…

Many institutions in the UK and elsewhere claim this. But that doesn't make it true.

The threshold of originality is historically signficiantly higher throughout most of continental Europe than in the UK. The 2001 Infopaq case also has relevance in the UK. The UK IPO indicated that based on this decision (binding in the UK) and other factors these images likely shouldn't have copyright even in the UK.

The 2019 EU copyright directive also explicitly included the provision that 2D replicas are not eligible for any new copyright (Art. 14). This is not directly relevant in the UK (though previous CJEU decisions remain effective there), but it does apply throughout the EU.

In short, the NPG doesn't decide what UK law says. Many people have claimed that scans and reproductions are worth copyright but in the vast majority of cases this is legally incorrect.

Re: The Berlin Egyptian Museum’s scan of the Bust of Nefertiti (2017)

#38

Post by mod50ack »

rippercushions wrote: post #30
mod50ack wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Commons does, however, allow scans of 2D public domain works that have "scarecrow" copyright claims in light of Bridgeman v. Corel (which ruled that such scans/photos can have no copyright in the US due to a lack of original creative content). Commons doesn't accept 2D photos of 3D works because these photos' lighting, positioning, etc. choices can give them original creative content. But a 3D scan isn't likely to co…

The Nefertiti Bust is a 3D work, and as you can see yourself, its scans are not available on Commons: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Nefertiti_Bust To be clear, I think the copyright claims are bullshit and it totally should be there, but Commons is very, very conservative in what it allows.

It's a rare scenario not generally considered by PD-Art on Commons. Commons isn't actually that conservative (except in that they demand the work be free in both its country of origin and the US). Commons has very few 3D models in general though not for copyright reasons.

Re: The Berlin Egyptian Museum’s scan of the Bust of Nefertiti (2017)

#39

Post by kmeisthax »

rtkwe wrote: post #20
pjlegato wrote: post #13

In the United States, there is case law[1] establishing that an exact replica of artwork that is itself in public domain is not eligible for copyright protection, because "originality" is a necessary element for copyright protection to exist. Works that lack any originality are therefore public domain even if they require effort or technical skill to produce, such as photographing a public domain painting, or presuma…

Ah but you see it’s not an exact replica they carved a copyright notice and their name on the bottom! Clearly that qualifies it for the copyright notice itself.

Technically correct - but if you remove the copyright notice then it becomes public domain again.

Re: The Berlin Egyptian Museum’s scan of the Bust of Nefertiti (2017)

#40

Post by titannet »

RjQoLCOSwiIKfpm wrote: post #4

Is there any statement of the museum which explains *why* they were being this obnoxious?

Any statement would likely just contain polite lies. The concept of open access to things created with public money is not really a thing in Germany (I believe it is in the US?) and many agencies will fight it on pure principle.
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