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Facial recognition tech gets woman booted from Rockettes show due to employer

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Re: Facial recognition tech gets woman booted from Rockettes show due to employer

#31

Post by dragonwriter »

defen wrote: post #7

Radio City Music Hall is a private venue, they can ban or exclude anyone they want, as long as it's not due to membership in a protected class. You don't have a right to attend a Rockettes show, and if she doesn't like this policy she can start her own Christmas Spectacular show.

> Radio City Music Hall is a private venue, they can ban or exclude anyone they want

I don’t think anyone is arguing that this is outside of their legal rights.

Things can be undesirable without being illegal, and just as MSG can legally punish this lawyer for distant connection to a lawsuit against them without violating the law, other people can note the behavior, criticize it, and even punish MSG for it in their business relations without violating the law.

Re: Facial recognition tech gets woman booted from Rockettes show due to employer

#32

Post by RC_ITR »

defen wrote: post #7

Radio City Music Hall is a private venue, they can ban or exclude anyone they want, as long as it's not due to membership in a protected class. You don't have a right to attend a Rockettes show, and if she doesn't like this policy she can start her own Christmas Spectacular show.

You are forgetting that they have the right to not sell tickets to whomever they choose, but once that ticket is sold, they are on very shaky ground to ban someone unless they misrepresented who they were when buying the ticket.

Tickets are contracts!

How can they prove this isn’t some bogus way to account for oversold seats? What if an airline did the same on oversold flights?

Re: Facial recognition tech gets woman booted from Rockettes show due to employer

#33

Post by fullshark »

mistrial9 wrote: post #22
fullshark wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well with advances in surveillance tech maybe we should rethink that general principle, as we have re: the protected class carve out you mention. You may be ok with this but how about excluding certain members due to low social credit scores? Or because they vote a certain way? Or because they said something mean on twitter about the owner? etc.

similar to the legality of unpleasant speech .. a private venue does have the right to exclude because it is.. privately owned. Instead of taking to the streets (or social media) in righteous anger, I suggest considering your economic support right now, of companies that build and operate societal surveillance machinery; that build and operate companies that rely on indentured servitude; companies that build and oper…

Data collection / sharing regulations should absolutely be passed in America asap. Laws re: facial recognition are being passed in part because it creeps us out but that's just the tip of the iceberg. EU is taking the lead here because these are American companies, but I no longer look at things like "right to be forgotten" or GDPR or whatever and scoff at those wacky Euros.

Re: Facial recognition tech gets woman booted from Rockettes show due to employer

#34

Post by dragonwriter »

analog31 wrote: post #28
defen wrote: post #7

Radio City Music Hall is a private venue, they can ban or exclude anyone they want, as long as it's not due to membership in a protected class. You don't have a right to attend a Rockettes show, and if she doesn't like this policy she can start her own Christmas Spectacular show.

It's a corporation, which blurs the notion of what it means to be "private." To assert its rights as a private entity, the venue could restructure itself as a Sole Proprietorship or Partnership.

> It’s a corporation, which blurs the notion of what it means to be “private.”

Legally, under established precedent, it does not, though a legal doctrine that as creations of the state through law corporations are bound by the same due process and equal protection rules that would affect all other state organs would be interesting, as would the corollary that foreign corporations, as creations of foreign states, are arms of their governments, and that their agents, including employees and domestic subsidiaries and their employees, are agents of foreign governments subject to all the rules and restrictions applicable thereto would be interesting.

Re: Facial recognition tech gets woman booted from Rockettes show due to employer

#35

Post by vleon42 »

I am torn actually unsure on what would be morally correct:

1. I, as an individual, am allowed to deny entry to persons I dislike from my private property.

2. I, as an individual, am allowed to deny entry to persons affiliated with a business I dislike from my private property.

3. I, as a business owner (eg: a restaurant), am allowed to deny entry to persons I dislike (eg: a previous patron who was violent) from my business.

4. I, as a business owner (eg: a restaurant), should I not be allowed to deny entry to persons affiliated with a business I dislike (eg: the next door restaurant employee who is copying my menu) from my business?

Re: Facial recognition tech gets woman booted from Rockettes show due to employer

#37

Post by defen »

RC_ITR wrote: post #32
defen wrote: post #7

Radio City Music Hall is a private venue, they can ban or exclude anyone they want, as long as it's not due to membership in a protected class. You don't have a right to attend a Rockettes show, and if she doesn't like this policy she can start her own Christmas Spectacular show.

You are forgetting that they have the right to not sell tickets to whomever they choose, but once that ticket is sold, they are on very shaky ground to ban someone unless they misrepresented who they were when buying the ticket. Tickets are contracts! How can they prove this isn’t some bogus way to account for oversold seats? What if an airline did the same on oversold flights?

> they are on very shaky ground to ban someone unless they misrepresented who they were when buying the ticket.

Then I suppose it will come down to whether the ticket terms included a clause that the purchaser/attendee was not employed by a firm involved in a lawsuit against MSGE.

Re: Facial recognition tech gets woman booted from Rockettes show due to employer

#38

Post by rurp »

kodyo wrote: post #16
defen wrote: post #7

Radio City Music Hall is a private venue, they can ban or exclude anyone they want, as long as it's not due to membership in a protected class. You don't have a right to attend a Rockettes show, and if she doesn't like this policy she can start her own Christmas Spectacular show.

Amen. Parallel industries will spring up to serve those disenfranchised from establishment dystopian nonsense, and the ongoing ideological self-segregation will accelerate. Best of all possible outcomes.

I wouldn't be so sure of this. There are countless examples of businesses applying gross discrimination practices for generations, and only stopping when forced to by the government.

Re: Facial recognition tech gets woman booted from Rockettes show due to employer

#39

Post by happytoexplain »

>MSG instituted a straightforward policy that precludes attorneys pursuing active litigation against the Company from attending events at our venues until that litigation has been resolved.

While it's reasonable to disagree with this policy, it's not really related to social dystopia, so I think it's dramatic to lament this in the vein of "today it's this, tomorrow it will be getting banned due to Tweeting about your politics", or whatever. I mean, yes, that may happen, but the only thing concerning about this case is the tech itself, and not necessarily the rationale under which it was deployed.

Re: Facial recognition tech gets woman booted from Rockettes show due to employer

#40

Post by jerf »

mannykannot wrote: post #10

"A spokesperson for MSG reiterated in a statement that safety is their highest priority and that facial recognition is just one of the methods they use. MSG Entertainment also said it is confident their policy is in compliance with all applicable laws, including the New York State Liquor Authority." Why do spokespersons frequently speak in non-sequiturs? They simply underline the absence of any good argument. I hope…

Because it works. Human brains are fairly bad at detecting non sequiturs. Even with practice it is still hard, because the brain does not want to activate the expensive rational thought system unless there is a good reason. If you can get it to activate that expensive system, it is often then easy to see through, but that is a tall bar.
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