When did our tools become our religion? • Hacker News Board

Re: When did our tools become our religion?

#31

Post by ablob » Thu, Dec 15, 2022, 6:01 PM UTC

afarrell wrote: post #24

chongli wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it isn't. The Romans were every bit as smart as we are today. The biggest difference between us and them is our tools. Similarly, compare the computers of the 60's (or even the 80's) to the computers of today. The difference in outcomes reflects the difference in capabilities.

The Romans were not as smart as us because they did not have the tools to understand the neurological effect of lead poisoning.

The Romans would be less smart than us, if they had the tools to understand the neurological effect of lead poisoning but couldn't do it anyway.

Re: When did our tools become our religion?

#32

Post by csdvrx » Thu, Dec 15, 2022, 6:02 PM UTC

madrox wrote: post #22

bloblaw wrote: post #16

FTA: > Otherwise, the only thing that matters is that the tool works. Every tool comes with its own upsides and downsides, but most of them are increasingly the same. They mostly differ in workflow. But I can promise you: they all draw rectangles equally as well. If you can accomplish your work with the tool, then it serves its purpose. Eevee dismissed with that argument succinctly when they wrote in their "PHP: a fr…

I've heard it differently, but is a corollary: bad tools make it easy for bad developers to do bad things. Good tools make it easy for bad developers to do good things.

> bad tools make it easy for bad developers to do bad things

Who get to say if it's good or bad?

We need more "software things".

Users can decide what's good.

A few billion people have decided FB (done in php) is good.

Re: When did our tools become our religion?

#33

Post by mikestew » Thu, Dec 15, 2022, 6:11 PM UTC

mc32 wrote: post #12

mgarfias wrote: post #5

9mm vs .45. Ford v chevy. John Deere vs kubota. It’s not just us geeks.

No, I want Alice Chalmers ;)

Minor nitpick: Ms. Chalmers did not make tractors. Two dudes named Allis and Chalmers did.

Re: When did our tools become our religion?

#34

Post by marcosdumay » Thu, Dec 15, 2022, 6:15 PM UTC

madrox wrote: post #22

bloblaw wrote: post #16

FTA: > Otherwise, the only thing that matters is that the tool works. Every tool comes with its own upsides and downsides, but most of them are increasingly the same. They mostly differ in workflow. But I can promise you: they all draw rectangles equally as well. If you can accomplish your work with the tool, then it serves its purpose. Eevee dismissed with that argument succinctly when they wrote in their "PHP: a fr…

I've heard it differently, but is a corollary: bad tools make it easy for bad developers to do bad things. Good tools make it easy for bad developers to do good things.

Bad tools make it hard for good developers to do good things, and good tools make it easy for good developers to to good things.

Why do you care about bad developers? They won't do good things either way.

Re: When did our tools become our religion?

#35

Post by 082349872349872 » Thu, Dec 15, 2022, 6:15 PM UTC

akiselev wrote: post #30

deltree7 wrote: post #27

(Forming of a ) Religion is always a 4 step process. i) Use a Framework/Tool/Process/Guideline rules to better your life. ii) Feeling of elation/enlightenment when it provides that dopamine hit because it does provide benefits compared to before. iii) The innate human nature to share the Framework/Tool/Process/Guidelines with others (and forming an opinion of them being idiots for not seeing the obvious benefits) iv)…

Where humanity goes, evil [1] follows. [1] https://github.com/emacs-evil/evil

  Editors lead to fresh code
  Fresh code leads to bugs
  Bugs lead to suffering

Re: When did our tools become our religion?

#36

Post by randcraw » Thu, Dec 15, 2022, 6:16 PM UTC

Nobody looks at a house and asks, "What kind of hammer and nails did they use?"

The OP is right: the interesting stuff in computing has always been what a new app/tool/library can DO, how it's being USED, but never HOW it was made.

This revelation first came home for me when the team of contractors I was on proposed to our customer that our mission for the next year should be to convert our prototype R&D air traffic control simulation from Pascal into C++. We were (stupidly) surprised when the customer declined, observing that the product's capabilities wouldn't advance at all but merely become a little more modern under the hood, where nobody but us contractors would ever look.

Re: When did our tools become our religion?

#37

Post by danbruc » Thu, Dec 15, 2022, 6:16 PM UTC

If it was only arguing about equally good tools, but sometimes actively choosing the worse tools is beyond me. XML and SOAP were perfectly fine and mature solutions with a lot of optional bells and whistles, but no, we have to invent and religiously use JSON and REST which are inferior in almost any way. And then we reinvent everything we already had - we invent JSON schema to replace XSD, we invent Swagger to replace WSDL and SOAP, and whatever does the job of XPath, XSLT, ... And we of course also make this change in a software that has been developed for more than a decade - because this is how it is done nowadays - and now half of the services are SOAP and half of them are REST.

Re: When did our tools become our religion?

#38

Post by 082349872349872 » Thu, Dec 15, 2022, 6:18 PM UTC

falcolas wrote: post #23

jdeaton wrote: post #4

> It is rather simple: The tools don't matter. Its hard to read past nonsense like this.

People can - do, and always have done - work around tool deficiencies. Once you're familiar with a tool, the simple act of moving to another tool will be what slows you down, but you'll get back up to speed soon enough. The only place tool choice really matters is when you're part of a team who has to pass their work around. If you're not using the same tool - whichever tool it may be - it adds needless friction.

In principle, if stuck on a desert island, we all could recreate our tools, right?

(stuck, w/plenty of hardware and electricity, that is)

Re: When did our tools become our religion?

#39

Post by akiselev » Thu, Dec 15, 2022, 6:22 PM UTC

082349872349872 wrote: post #35

akiselev wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where humanity goes, evil [1] follows. [1] https://github.com/emacs-evil/evil

Editors lead to fresh code Fresh code leads to bugs Bugs lead to suffering

   Suffering leads to the management side

Re: When did our tools become our religion?

#40

Post by eYrKEC2 » Thu, Dec 15, 2022, 6:24 PM UTC

randcraw wrote: post #36

Nobody looks at a house and asks, "What kind of hammer and nails did they use?" The OP is right: the interesting stuff in computing has always been what a new app/tool/library can DO, how it's being USED, but never HOW it was made. This revelation first came home for me when the team of contractors I was on proposed to our customer that our mission for the next year should be to convert our prototype R&D air traffic…

A craftsman in building construction values his tools as well. You will see contempt on a journeyman's face if you hand him a Harbor Freight circular saw, but he will ogle your Fesstool circular saw.

Some tools feel better in your hands.