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Chrome, 10 Years Later

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31–40 of 175 posts

Re: Chrome, 10 Years Later

#31
post #28
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another way of framing this is that Google wanted to do things that browsers couldn't and better, and built a new browser that redefined what the standards could be. You could call that "control" but in the early days when Chrome was gaining dominance it made the web better. The change in reputation is directly related to the change in the decision making and reasons behind it, imo.

From this narrow perspective, Internet Explorer was the exact same story. Starting around version 4.0 it really was a better browser than Netscape, implemented the new standards better, and also did essential new things that other browsers couldn’t (XmlHttpRequest anyone?). IE’s dominance really made the web better because developers could write to a single standard and end users had a unified browser UX. Now, I disa…

> Now, I disagree with this definition of “better” because it doesn’t consider the indirect effects on the open web platform. But my opinion is presumably a minority one because the community has sleepwalked into the same situation with Google and Chrome.

Yes, and meanwhile prevented the content being locked inside the walled garden platforms like Facebook and apps on Apple AppStore. It's really strange how none of you remember that having most news and other content locked off behind a mobile app was a serious trend that happened before web caught up?

Re: Chrome, 10 Years Later

#32
post #31
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From this narrow perspective, Internet Explorer was the exact same story. Starting around version 4.0 it really was a better browser than Netscape, implemented the new standards better, and also did essential new things that other browsers couldn’t (XmlHttpRequest anyone?). IE’s dominance really made the web better because developers could write to a single standard and end users had a unified browser UX. Now, I disa…

> Now, I disagree with this definition of “better” because it doesn’t consider the indirect effects on the open web platform. But my opinion is presumably a minority one because the community has sleepwalked into the same situation with Google and Chrome. Yes, and meanwhile prevented the content being locked inside the walled garden platforms like Facebook and apps on Apple AppStore. It's really strange how none of y…

Serious trend? It never stopped. Literally every website on the mobile version will outright demand I download the app. Even sites that are on a desktop will refuse to do anything the site should do and instead tell me to download the app.

It's harder to game app downloads than site visits, so companies chased app downloads. It has very little to do with the user experience or preference.

Re: Chrome, 10 Years Later

#33
> There was a second subplot about how Microsoft was increasingly turning to nasty practices to get back at Google, and fears about using IE to pull some anti-Google shenanigans.

And then Google started doing the same, against Mozilla (and probably Apple, too): https://twitter.com/johnath/status/1116871231792455686?s=20&...

Quote from that thread: "The question is not whether individual sidewalk labs people have pure motives. I know some of them, just like I know plenty on the Chrome team. They’re great people. But focus on the behaviour of the organism as a whole. At the macro level, google/alphabet is very intentional."

Re: Chrome, 10 Years Later

#34
> People seem to think it's the browser's job to block ads, but my perspective is that if a business owner wants to make their business repulsive, the only sensible response is to stop using the business. Somehow once technology is involved to abstract what's happening, people start talking about how it's their right to unilaterally renegotiate the transaction. Or for another analogy that will likely make you upset: "I hate how this store charges $10 for a banana, so I am just going to pay $2 and take the banana anyway".

What if every business owner has decided to make their business repulsive, because that's a winning strategy for them?

The "don't just use that business" idea has never worked if your goal is actually to change how the market at large behaves. See the much larger industries such as food (boycott factory farming) or energy (boycott fossil fuels).

Ultimately, when boycotting a business, the customer has to bear a harder cost than the business owner: The business owner loses one transaction while the customer loses the entire service. It's only effective if large numbers of customers would quit as the same time, which is almost impossible to pull off (see above).

"Cheating", such as blocking ads but using the service anyway is one way to solve that power imbalance and actually put pressure on sites to look for another business model.

Re: Chrome, 10 Years Later

#35
post #26

> History will surely uncover a Machiavellian plot about usurping control over the web, but at the time the story was pretty simple, at least as it was explained to naive pawns like me. Google wanted the web to succeed and even had a team of people contributing to Firefox. Google wanted more influence over the product, Mozilla was (reasonably) uncomfortable with that, so we went our own way. This resonates with me. O…

It's the predictable consequence of the things built. I don't think you can absolve yourself of responsibility for how your work is used just because you didn't realize that companies exist to make money.

> Just because you didn't realize that companies exist to make money.

There are many different ways to make money though. I work with green energy tech in what is essentially an investment bank. Like most companies our main purpose is to make rich people richer, but we do this by building solar and wind power plants along with storage. We do this in the most ethically correct way possible, which is often also a much more expensive way, but it gives us the opportunity to sell our products to customers who will not buy things that are build in what they view as terrible countries. From a cynical perspective, I can see how this could get interpreted as being done because of money. But the truth is that it has been one of the organisational goals from the beginning, and it's hammered into every part of the company in such a way, that we don't hire people we don't think are committed to doing things the right way. It comes from the very Scandinavian belief that there is enough money to be made by doing things right. This isn't necessarily a competitive strategy on the 1-10 year plan, but when you look beyond those 10 years, it's slowly turning out to be the only profitable way to turn out a healthy consistant profit in the green energy industry.

I think Google had that when they had their "don't be evil" spirit going for them. In many ways I still think they have that going for them. I also think the company struggles to become more than just an advertising company, and I think it's a shame, because they seem to have some genuinely great products that are completely unusable for businesses (especially here in Europe). Which is also where I think things get sort of interesting with stuff like ad-blockers and Manifest V3. Because ad-blockers are consumer friendly (sort of), but they aren't business friendly.

If you want to run a website that offers content that is paid for by ads, then you can't do that if everyone uses an ad-blocker. Google, Apple and Microsoft can, because they have ways around it by building ads directly into their core products in a non-skippable fashion, but you can't. This is what has been hurting journalism, or at least the journalism that people don't want to pay for, but it's frankly hurting any sort of content creation. If you want to create videos about something, you're going to put it on YouTube. Both because it gives you exposure, but also because it gives you an easier revenue stream with the (sort of) unblockable ads in their app. Once you get enough people following you, you may build your own content-site and rely on subscribers, but you're not going to do that when you're just starting out. This is a stark difference compared to the early web. I remember running a Diablo 2 fan site for the fun of it, that generated enough ad revenue from a single non-intrusive banner add, to pay for a laptop back when I was a teenager. You can't do that on the modern web, and ad-blockers are a big part of the reason.

I don't have a good answer for you, but I don't think you can say that ad-blockers are inherently good, or, that Google is inherently evil for wanting to change the way advertisement works. I'm also not sure you can expect power houses like the EU to uphold the right for browsers to be capable of blocking ads. They may but the EU is also looking for ways to save journalism.

Lastly. I'm as much a fan of the old punk saying "the guilty don't feel guilty, they learn not to" as you seem to be, but I'm just not convinced it really applies here.

Re: Chrome, 10 Years Later

#36
post #34

> People seem to think it's the browser's job to block ads, but my perspective is that if a business owner wants to make their business repulsive, the only sensible response is to stop using the business. Somehow once technology is involved to abstract what's happening, people start talking about how it's their right to unilaterally renegotiate the transaction. Or for another analogy that will likely make you upset:…

> What if every business owner has decided to make their business repulsive, because that's a winning strategy for them?

Can anyone really make that argument though?

Maybe making sites repulsive is the default because those that push that default earns money on it?

You recognize these dark pattern modal boxes that absolutely ruin a site and you feel the complexity. The mom and pop site most assuredly did not invent this, and if they believe they even wanted it is because they were tricked into it.

Re: Chrome, 10 Years Later

#37
post #31
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From this narrow perspective, Internet Explorer was the exact same story. Starting around version 4.0 it really was a better browser than Netscape, implemented the new standards better, and also did essential new things that other browsers couldn’t (XmlHttpRequest anyone?). IE’s dominance really made the web better because developers could write to a single standard and end users had a unified browser UX. Now, I disa…

> Now, I disagree with this definition of “better” because it doesn’t consider the indirect effects on the open web platform. But my opinion is presumably a minority one because the community has sleepwalked into the same situation with Google and Chrome. Yes, and meanwhile prevented the content being locked inside the walled garden platforms like Facebook and apps on Apple AppStore. It's really strange how none of y…

I don't remember that. When was any news locked in at Facebook? How even? When chrome came around, how many people even had smartphones? The majority of people still used Facebook via Browser then.

But even if; just like in the movies, when the good guy finally turns bad, you have to get rid of him.

Re: Chrome, 10 Years Later

#38
post #34

> People seem to think it's the browser's job to block ads, but my perspective is that if a business owner wants to make their business repulsive, the only sensible response is to stop using the business. Somehow once technology is involved to abstract what's happening, people start talking about how it's their right to unilaterally renegotiate the transaction. Or for another analogy that will likely make you upset:…

I agree, although it's never "cheating" to block ads on our own devices, unless we accept that it's okay to force people from looking away Clockwork Orange-style. (Even the term "blocking" seems wrong: it's not like the ads are coming down a pipe and my "ad blocker" is bouncing them away.)

Re: Chrome, 10 Years Later

#39
> In retrospect I enjoyed this a lot, for two reasons. One is that getting code review from experienced engineers is one of the best ways to grow as a programmer, and the Apple engineers came from a totally foreign engineering culture — no unit tests! no comments! — that also was clearly producing a high-quality product.

Anyone know if this still applies to Apple’s SW engineering culture? Or if it’s just some urban myth? Hard to believe.

Re: Chrome, 10 Years Later

#40
post #5

> Apple cares about making a browser that renders web pages just adequately enough to be acceptable I think this is biased. It's closer to "Apple cares about rendering currently existing web pages superbly" while "Google also cares about rendering future web pages". Once upon a time, V8 won benchmarks and ran demos faster but JavaScriptCore rendered the web faster. This was mainly due to JavaScriptCore having an opti…

It's hard to speak for Apple why Safari is where it is. Pro: battery life Con: lagging behind on some features

The fact that lack of Safari features drives people through taxed AppStore is just an accidental Apple side effect right? ;)

Google is utterly evil for driving people towards web Ads for profit, while Apple drives people into their 30% tax AppStore by pure altruistic battery concerns?

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