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Free H-1B for laid off tech-workers

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Re: Free H-1B for laid off tech-workers

#31

Post by bombolo »

bobosha wrote: post #19
pirate787 wrote: post #3

The H-1B program is designed to suppress tech worker wages in the U.S. and create a more compliant workforce here. I'm not sure it is possible for a company to ethically use this program, and many outright use it for abuse https://www.epi.org/publication/new-evidence-widespread-wage...

IMO this is a gross generalization and exaggeration. Sure some abuse occurs in H1b, but it has also been the path of entry for many immigrants. While I am not certain, I believe Nadella, Pichai, Musk, and many others came in via the h1b. Over 50% of companies founded in SV have a founder who is foreign born. To just blithely dismiss the positives because of your own naked self-interest. ("suppress tech worker wages")…

but musk was a millionaire… it's different if you can buy out the entire company sponsoring you

Re: Free H-1B for laid off tech-workers

#32

Post by edgyquant »

r00fus wrote: post #15
mechanical_bear wrote: post #4

Why? What is their motivation in offering this? It is not altruistic.

It's to help companies and H1B workers at the same time. It doesn't support the nativist theme that legal immigrants should be tossed out of the country for no other reason than their company had layoffs it a tight market. Ideally, we'd spend more on education/training and less on sourcing workers from other countries - but being nice to the workers already here and making it work for small companies seems a legit al…

People who are allowed here to work for a company should indeed be forced to leave when said company lays them off.

Re: Free H-1B for laid off tech-workers

#33

Post by thwayunion »

whatshisface wrote: post #9
bushbaba wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, in during a downturn it actually helps US Citizens. Any laid off H1b who doesn't find a job soon will end up deported. This will prevent a large glut of labor considerably bringing US down wages.

If the supply goes down as a response to falling demand that's not going to help anybody's wages...

There are situations where GP is correct, because there is an alternative to the H1B. Employers can outsource the entire department.

Outsourcing has risks, though. These risks are especially difficult to mitigate in "real" high tech where IP and trade secrets have real value. Outsourcing risks are also difficult to manage in cases where sensitive customer (or valuable company) data is being handled. In these cases, companies will only outsource when they really cannot find domestic labor, full stop. (Remember that >60% of CS PhDs go to immigrants.)

In these cases, H1Bs allow the job function to stay completely onshore. So then local employees benefit from the fact that they are easier to hire when companies over-shoot layoffs or lose H1Bs due to ratios.

Re: Free H-1B for laid off tech-workers

#34

Post by thwayunion »

HideousKojima wrote: post #23
rightbyte wrote: post #8

"It is absolutely worth considering as data has shown that there are drastic shortages of STEM workers in the U.S." Really? Still going with this? Especially the S and M?

"Shortage" doesn't mean a lack of qualified workers, it means a lack of qualified workers willing to work at the salaries being offered.

In the case of "S" and "M", those wages are below median for the country and in some cases not even livable for the first 6 years of a career [1, 1a], and people struggle with rent well into middle age [2]. For better or worse, Science and Mathematics are case studies in "limitless immigration" and the result is wage suppression to the point of not being able to afford rent on a shared apartment and food at the same time.

NB: this isn't an argument against immigration. We should welcome all. But we should also truly require reasonable prevailing wages, no matter what. Otherwise everyone loses.

[1] https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-022-03478-x

[1a] graduate students are often instructors of record on courses and conduct funded research. These are jobs.

[2] https://www.science.org/content/article/professors-struggle-...

Re: Free H-1B for laid off tech-workers

#35

Post by blue039 »

H-1Bs are a form of wage suppression. They claim they can't find workers to work in STEM but what they can't find is workers who are willing to take massive pay cuts.

So, instead, they hold foreigners hostage (in all but the most literal sense) with poor wages and the "promise" of citizenship eventually.

No one wins - except of course the megacorps.

Re: Free H-1B for laid off tech-workers

#36

Post by notch656a »

bombolo wrote: post #31
bobosha wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMO this is a gross generalization and exaggeration. Sure some abuse occurs in H1b, but it has also been the path of entry for many immigrants. While I am not certain, I believe Nadella, Pichai, Musk, and many others came in via the h1b. Over 50% of companies founded in SV have a founder who is foreign born. To just blithely dismiss the positives because of your own naked self-interest. ("suppress tech worker wages")…

but musk was a millionaire… it's different if you can buy out the entire company sponsoring you

AFAIK US has a visa scheme where you can invest something like $1M and get an investor visa. Pretty common to see immigrants that come to the US and buy up some gas station or other fairly turn-key business to take advantage of this. You don't have to buy a company and then have the company sponsor you if you do it that way AFAIK.

If you have a few hundo' thou' you can get an investor visa that leads toward residency about anywhere, and only a few places like America are more than that.

Re: Free H-1B for laid off tech-workers

#37

Post by cactusplant7374 »

bergenty wrote: post #28
pirate787 wrote: post #3

The H-1B program is designed to suppress tech worker wages in the U.S. and create a more compliant workforce here. I'm not sure it is possible for a company to ethically use this program, and many outright use it for abuse https://www.epi.org/publication/new-evidence-widespread-wage...

It’s unethical to hire foreign talent and provide a legal means of entry for high quality immigrants? This is a despicable take and very suspect agenda minded rationalization.

I think OP is suggesting that the position could be filled locally. Should H1-B be used to fill junior or mid-level positions? Certainly these positions require a lot of training and development work on the part of the company hiring them. That certainly is an argument against the applicants being at a high skill level.

Re: Free H-1B for laid off tech-workers

#38

Post by bobosha »

tristor wrote: post #29
bobosha wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMO this is a gross generalization and exaggeration. Sure some abuse occurs in H1b, but it has also been the path of entry for many immigrants. While I am not certain, I believe Nadella, Pichai, Musk, and many others came in via the h1b. Over 50% of companies founded in SV have a founder who is foreign born. To just blithely dismiss the positives because of your own naked self-interest. ("suppress tech worker wages")…

> Sure some abuse occurs in H1b, but it has also been the path of entry for many immigrants. You are not even remotely addressing the concerns of the person you are replying to. Saying the program is a "path of entry for many immigrants" while true doesn't in any case obviate the fraud, in fact it's true even in cases of fraud, it's a tautology. There are ENTIRE multi-billion dollar businesses that are entirely based…

You speak of this as if this is the only case of fraud/misrepresentation in any government program. Surely you are not saying every "American Programmer" has been fraud free, or no American Company has ever broken the law. The "WITCH" group as you call them is no better/worse than most other businesses.

Your emotional straw-manned attack speaks volumes about your own entitlement arrogance and naked self-interest, dare-i-say greed. I am a business owner that employs h1bs, we pay them on par with US hires - and we pay top dollar because of our specialized skill needs.

Also I think the fraud is in people like you and your entitlement arrogance, with fantasies of running a "American Programmer" cartel. Sorry businesses are not going to kneel to your shakedown racket: "pay me whatever-i-ask or else..."

Finally - this is crying out loud for some whataboutism - h1b fraud P-A-L-E-S in comparison to fraud in SS/Medicare/Medicaid/... many, many other government programs. For people like you to get on a high horse and yell "fraud" because of some cases of visa abuse, are really about your own greed.

Such smug holier-than-thou absolutist sanctimony among people on your side of the argument prevents meaningful h1b reform such as better filtering (salary-based) mechanism, which I think many in business would back as well to reduce fraud.

Re: Free H-1B for laid off tech-workers

#39

Post by Ao7bei3s »

notch656a wrote: post #17
pirate787 wrote: post #3

The H-1B program is designed to suppress tech worker wages in the U.S. and create a more compliant workforce here. I'm not sure it is possible for a company to ethically use this program, and many outright use it for abuse https://www.epi.org/publication/new-evidence-widespread-wage...

It baffles my mind why anyone would immigrate here legally, considering how laughably easy it is to overstay (or cross one of our multi-thousand mile borders or coasts). I've interacted with DHS (the department under which immigration is housed) and they are nothing but authoritarian jack-boots who systematically destroy your civil rights, I can't imagine what it would be like to actually ask them "may I pretty pleas…

It may be easy to overstay, but it is not easy to retain a good middle class lifestyle long term. For example:

1. Mandatory I-9 verification means you will not be able to work at any large or non-shady company. No more highly paid tech jobs.

2. You can not re-enter and therefore you cannot leave, e.g. to see your parents in your home country, business trips or international vacations.

3. You cannot renew your drivers license past your visa expiration date. At best you can get a worse alternative (depends on state; AB60 in California) that lets you drive and not much more.

4. You would live in fear of ICE. After going through the legal immigration system, I cannot even imagine the stress of interacting with the illegal immigration system.

5. At that point your chance of naturalization is gone. Even everything else being equal, leaving and legally coming back on another H-1B would've been a _much_ more appealing option.

And I don't think any illegal immigrants would be laughing at the efforts of legal immigrants. I am shocked that you would write that. I am pretty sure nearly all illegal immigrants would love to follow a legal path if there was one that was achievable for them. After all, undocumented immigrants currently pay billions of dollars in state and federal taxes every year.

Re: Free H-1B for laid off tech-workers

#40

Post by foogazi »

bushbaba wrote: post #7
pirate787 wrote: post #3

The H-1B program is designed to suppress tech worker wages in the U.S. and create a more compliant workforce here. I'm not sure it is possible for a company to ethically use this program, and many outright use it for abuse https://www.epi.org/publication/new-evidence-widespread-wage...

To be fair, in during a downturn it actually helps US Citizens. Any laid off H1b who doesn't find a job soon will end up deported. This will prevent a large glut of labor considerably bringing US down wages.

How ? Its a downturn already
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