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Man of the Hole

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Re: Man of the Hole

#31

Post by defrost »

aussiesnack wrote: post #15
defrost wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, you can watch Milli Milli [1] (for one example) if you're seeking a contrast between Central to Northern Western practices: > takes the viewer on a cultural travelogue through the three regions of the Kimberleys: the coast, the rivers and tablelands, and the desert. and you're correct about the breadth of languages across Australia as a whole. The point stands that this group were first hand direct testimony to…

Thanks for the film ref. Like most Australians, my knowledge of indigenous folk is patchy at best - a few books and local interactions here and there. I have actually helped hunt/collect & eat goanna (not bad) and turtle eggs (yuck), which probably puts me a bit outside of the Australian norm. But in truth the indigenous world is an entirely 'foreign' culture to most of us. As is European culture to many indigenous f…

We're in a time when only recently > 50% of the human population became urbanised.

Even in the UK and the EU you're barely a generation away from "what do you hunt" being a fair and reasonable question - hunting boar in a European forest in the 1940s was not altogether uncommon, catching birds, fish, rabbits, et al in the countryside to supplement scarce food was absolutely a wartime pursuit in the UK.

As a Kimberley kid I grew up spear fishing [1] from boats, jetties, reefs, and the shore as part and parcel of a life building radios to listen in on US submarine comms stations further down the coast and reverse engineer early NAVSTAR signals .. thanks to a lot of post war types that felt the need to stay in touch with world tensions and events in the region from Vietnam through to PNG.

Can't complain about a healthy lifestyle with plenty of fresh food :-)

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gmCX7R-W4c

Re: Man of the Hole

#32

Post by mlyle »

MonkeyMalarky wrote: post #29
andrewflnr wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The primary difference in ethics is whether you've forcibly relocated them. You're picking a really weird aspect of the human zoo thing to fixate on and ignoring the huge flashing sign that says "liberty". There's really no good reason to compare the scenarios. I'm a fan of Hanlon's Razor but this is the kind of obtuseness that raises genuine questions of whether you're speaking in good faith.

Where is the liberty though? By definition, a native from an uncontacted tribe can't make an informed choice.

He refused contact with outsiders.

Would you have preferred that he had been forcibly contacted and educated, to make an "informed" choice, in the name of his liberty and/or autonomy?

Re: Man of the Hole

#33

Post by nine_k »

MonkeyMalarky wrote: post #12
nine_k wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is that knowledge accumulated? I suppose these tribes lack writing?

Oral tradition?

I was mostly intetested in the kinds of oral traditions, and maybe other traditions to catch knowledge without writing, say, using sculpted / cut figures, etc.

Re: Man of the Hole

#34

Post by zach_garwood »

MonkeyMalarky wrote: post #29
andrewflnr wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The primary difference in ethics is whether you've forcibly relocated them. You're picking a really weird aspect of the human zoo thing to fixate on and ignoring the huge flashing sign that says "liberty". There's really no good reason to compare the scenarios. I'm a fan of Hanlon's Razor but this is the kind of obtuseness that raises genuine questions of whether you're speaking in good faith.

Where is the liberty though? By definition, a native from an uncontacted tribe can't make an informed choice.

How do you figure? Every day they make the choice to live like they do, just like you make the choice to live in your town doing whatever it is you do. If you wanted to live a different lifestyle, you could pick a direction, go there, and live like the people there. They choose not to. That sounds like liberty to me.

Re: Man of the Hole

#35

Post by zach_garwood »

MonkeyMalarky wrote: post #19
lazide wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Zoos are artificial environments constructed to put things on exhibit outside of their natural environment for the education and entertainment of others. A preserve is an area carved out to prohibit the others from going in and screwing with someone or something. So basically, they’re polar opposites.

If we had a nature preserve filled with human beings that are unaware of the modern world, left to their own devices and hard lives, the difference in ethics is the entertainment factor? Say their lives aren't broadcast for consumption, is that okay? What about 10, 100 or even 1,000 years from now?

This is veering into White Man's Burden territory.

Re: Man of the Hole

#37

Post by andrewflnr »

MonkeyMalarky wrote: post #29
andrewflnr wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The primary difference in ethics is whether you've forcibly relocated them. You're picking a really weird aspect of the human zoo thing to fixate on and ignoring the huge flashing sign that says "liberty". There's really no good reason to compare the scenarios. I'm a fan of Hanlon's Razor but this is the kind of obtuseness that raises genuine questions of whether you're speaking in good faith.

Where is the liberty though? By definition, a native from an uncontacted tribe can't make an informed choice.

The liberty is in not being forcibly relocated. Try to focus.

Note how far the question has already drifted from human zoos, to just whether it's good to contact people or not. This is not an accident. It's because the human zoo comparison was never defensible; it was trivial to force you to move the goalposts.

Re: Man of the Hole

#38

Post by rajeshp1986 »

Breaks my hear to see the indigenous tribes and cultures dying. We will regret Deforestation & forced-modernization of these forest based tribes. In Africa & India, some of the evangelical proselytizing has destroyed very old knowledge of the land. There was one tribe in Andaman & Nicobar island which had some indigenous knowledge about weather patterns, storms and earthquakes. It was found that the members of the tribe migrated to higher areas just before the Tsunami hit in 2004.

Re: Man of the Hole

#39

Post by TedDoesntTalk »

andrewflnr wrote: post #27
MonkeyMalarky wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we had a nature preserve filled with human beings that are unaware of the modern world, left to their own devices and hard lives, the difference in ethics is the entertainment factor? Say their lives aren't broadcast for consumption, is that okay? What about 10, 100 or even 1,000 years from now?

The primary difference in ethics is whether you've forcibly relocated them. You're picking a really weird aspect of the human zoo thing to fixate on and ignoring the huge flashing sign that says "liberty". There's really no good reason to compare the scenarios. I'm a fan of Hanlon's Razor but this is the kind of obtuseness that raises genuine questions of whether you're speaking in good faith.

The Truman Show

Re: Man of the Hole

#40

Post by brianyu8 »

defrost wrote: post #8

On a related note, it's not quite forty years since the Pintupi Nine first directly encountered "the modern world": > In 1984 a group of Australian Aboriginal people living a traditional nomadic life were encountered in the heart of the Gibson desert in Western Australia. > They had been unaware of the arrival of Europeans on the continent, let alone cars - or even clothes. > If you want to know how Australian Aborig…

Fascinating article, thank you for sharing.

I found it incredible how several of the siblings are now well-known artists[0]! What a life these people have led.

[0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warlimpirrnga_Tjapaltjarri

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