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Friendship Forever

secretorum.life

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Re: Friendship Forever

#31

Post by zwkrt »

jimkleiber wrote: post #22
zwkrt wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoted post unavailable.

I feel pretty frustrated when I hear it labeled as a "mental health problem." For me it sounds like fear maybe stemming from a past experience where he may have been quite vulnerable and got really hurt and wants to avoid feeling so hurt again. And in that framing, I think most of us experience this in different realms of life. I think why I have such strong reactions to "mental health problem" is that I get the impr…

You’re right I was being harsh, but I wanted to really make a strong point that the above commenter was not describing innate qualities of manhood.

Re: Friendship Forever

#32

Post by zwkrt »

unity1001 wrote: post #29
zwkrt wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed, I’m definitely coming at this as an American. Even more so as a Seattleite, a place known for its relative social coldness even by US standards.

I was told that it wasn't always this bad in the US either. A few decades ago, people were warmer and they socialized more. It looks like in the past few decades, social alienation and fear have set into the American society and started making people ever more distant from each other. Likely because of the stress and angst caused by economic insecurity, consumerism, the ensuing social and political conflicts etc etc.

I agree on all points. I think tech/phones have this effect as well. People become more like the machines they interact with. Seattle is probably the most tech-dominated city by ratio of residents in the industry in the US…

Re: Friendship Forever

#33

Post by JetAlone »

pmarreck wrote: post #25
JetAlone wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a man. I don't even like showing tremendous physical intimacy with the women I go out with on dates. I hate it when people at my workplace or church touch me. My brain says "Get away from me, all of you".

Did you grow up without physical intimacy/closeness from your parents or in particular your father?

I did have plenty of physical intimacy from my parents and my father growing up. Lots of hugs, kisses from both parents etc. After reading some of the other comments and reflecting, I think it's that I feel like too many of the people in this world are trying to socially manipulate me through touch, when I wish to be away from them.

Re: Friendship Forever

#34

Post by fruit2020 »

briga wrote: post #21
fruit2020 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re right. I din’t want to be perceived as gay. What is wrong with that? I have so many gay people I know. My dentist, my next door neighbors, my ex boss, my ex classmate, some work colleagues. I get along with all of them. Live and let live. Let me enjoy being straight.

How exactly do a couple funny looks from strangers prevent you from enjoying being straight? If you were gay would you get mad at people for assuming you're straight? You can't control what people think of you, so it's hardly sensible to base your enjoyment of life on their opinions.

I enjoyed myself. I didn’t enjoy the looks, but it’s hard to explain.

Re: Friendship Forever

#35

Post by zwkrt »

charlie0 wrote: post #9
zwkrt wrote: post #3

It’s funny as a gay man to see all of these pictures because they really do read to me as gay with my modern lens. That isn’t because of some sort of special gaydar it’s just so uncommon to see straight men showing any type of vulnerability or affection with each other. I have a friend who’s been playing soccer with the same team for 10 years and he came to me saying he realize that he didn’t know anything about thei…

I think that hard times is what really creates that sense of brotherhood. Unfortunately, in the modern western world, it has become really easy to avoid serious hardships once you get even to a modest level of income. I've wanted to do challenging things with acquaintances of mine, but they just don't pan out. I invite people to the gym, I invite them on long hikes, I ask them to do something challenging with me, but…

I think hard times are a sufficient but not necessary condition. The reason that hard times create close relationships is because in a hard time you have to really be real with the people around you. You have to have mutual trust and mutual vulnerability.

These are things you can have even in good times. Ideally we would have them and not have hard times. But I think many people are not really interested in opening up in this way without an external catalyst.

Re: Friendship Forever

#36

Post by JetAlone »

zwkrt wrote: post #31
jimkleiber wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel pretty frustrated when I hear it labeled as a "mental health problem." For me it sounds like fear maybe stemming from a past experience where he may have been quite vulnerable and got really hurt and wants to avoid feeling so hurt again. And in that framing, I think most of us experience this in different realms of life. I think why I have such strong reactions to "mental health problem" is that I get the impr…

You’re right I was being harsh, but I wanted to really make a strong point that the above commenter was not describing innate qualities of manhood.

I wasn't trying to say this was innate to manhood itself. I started with "I'm a man" so that, combined with information in the second sentence you'd know that I date women. I said it that way because I don't actually identify with any of the sexual orientation labels.

Re: Friendship Forever

#37

Post by JetAlone »

JetAlone wrote: post #33
pmarreck wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you grow up without physical intimacy/closeness from your parents or in particular your father?

I did have plenty of physical intimacy from my parents and my father growing up. Lots of hugs, kisses from both parents etc. After reading some of the other comments and reflecting, I think it's that I feel like too many of the people in this world are trying to socially manipulate me through touch, when I wish to be away from them.

Of course, with a world like ours, the people successfully manipulating me are more likely the ones I can't touch.

Re: Friendship Forever

#38

Post by throwaway290 »

briga wrote: post #21
fruit2020 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re right. I din’t want to be perceived as gay. What is wrong with that? I have so many gay people I know. My dentist, my next door neighbors, my ex boss, my ex classmate, some work colleagues. I get along with all of them. Live and let live. Let me enjoy being straight.

How exactly do a couple funny looks from strangers prevent you from enjoying being straight? If you were gay would you get mad at people for assuming you're straight? You can't control what people think of you, so it's hardly sensible to base your enjoyment of life on their opinions.

A human is social, how we see ourselves is not really separable from how others see us. Read about the psychological concept of labeling: we tend to become who others think we are.

It's not about becoming mad at people around you thinking you're gay, but if you can actually fully ignore community's attitude towards you and not let it subtly change your behavior or weigh on you I'd say it's not typical.

Re: Friendship Forever

#39

Post by jimkleiber »

zwkrt wrote: post #23
jimkleiber wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm a guy and have been focused on building tools to explore emotions for like 10 years. I think a lot of us men lack intimacy with close friends, especially emotional, because we lack it with ourselves. The analogy that came to mind this morning is that of a swimming pool. If intimacy is the depth of water, many of us are afraid to go into the deep end. We want to feel the narrow slice of what we've learned is ok to…

I think that’s an honorable goal. I like the swimming pool analogy. Some people and cultures are just so much more guarded when it comes to addressing their feelings with others. Even basic-level friend feelings of appreciation, compersion, and annoyance that are present in most all friend relationships. As a result connections can only go so deep and peoples’ friendships can feel empty and unfulfilling. The best par…

I think I hear you. I studied intercultural communication in college and think I got so good at adapting to culture and have been asking myself more lately about how much would I like to change culture.

That's one thing I really appreciate about the article, almost saying let's try to (re)create culture to encourage friendship and affection and depth.

Re: Friendship Forever

#40

Post by [deleted] »

JetAlone wrote: post #36
zwkrt wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re right I was being harsh, but I wanted to really make a strong point that the above commenter was not describing innate qualities of manhood.

I wasn't trying to say this was innate to manhood itself. I started with "I'm a man" so that, combined with information in the second sentence you'd know that I date women. I said it that way because I don't actually identify with any of the sexual orientation labels.

[deleted]
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