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EVs are the least reliable vehicle type: Consumer Reports

finance.yahoo.com

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Re: EVs are the least reliable vehicle type: Consumer Reports

#31

Post by dsfyu404ed »

Kon-Peki wrote: post #7
Markoff wrote: post #2

Article: While demand for electric vehicles has surged in last two years, new data from Consumer Reports finding that EVs are among the least reliable cars in the auto industry. Pras Subramanian here with the details and Pras, clearly something that the auto industry doesn't necessarily want to hear. PRAS SUBRAMANIAN: Yeah, you know, I was a little surprised to hear that. Because EVs, generally speaking, are simpler…

> So Consumer Reports put together 3 of their top hybrids here. The Lexus NX came out a few years ago in the premium luxury segment here. Very nice car, attractive car, good mileage there. The Ford Maverick. Now we actually had this truck. It is a small compact utility pickup truck. Unibody construction, 38 MPG with hybrid. Yeah. What's really surprising about the Ford Maverick rated so highly is not really that it's…

>What's really surprising about the Ford Maverick rated so highly is not really that it's a brand new vehicle from Ford, but that it was engineered to be the least expensive truck possible.

Ford kicked off the Maverick project with the goal of low sticker price AND the expectation of low sales volume.

To cut the sticker price they reused a bunch of proven tech from the Focus/Escape/Transit Connect parts bin rather than the half baked New Hotness(TM). In order to recoup engineering costs despite low volume they were forced there was little room in the engineering man-hours budget for the automotive equivalent of "trendy JS framework of the month to the detriment of everything he works on" and other "pad my resume and/or hit my KPIs to the detriment of the product" behavior that plagues BigCo engineering projects.

Basically they were forced to attack it like they were building an Escape (an already reliable and well liked vehicle) with a bed and facelift, not a new vehicle and that path offers a lot less opportunity to build bloated trash than the "develop a new vehicle" path does.

Re: EVs are the least reliable vehicle type: Consumer Reports

#32

Post by Jeremy1026 »

tunap wrote: post #21
kube-system wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maintenance reliability Maintenance is planned. Reliability issues are unplanned failures. An EV may have brakes that last longer and no oil changes, but some EV manufacturers are adding gimmicky and buggy electronics, or poorly designed body hardware that fails.

My cousin recently had a flat tire in her EV. Roadside Assistance did not have a spare, required an expensive tow & her day was a total loss. Dragging a toddler along made a stressful experience worse, as well. I did not previously realize most(?) EVs have no spare tire included.

I haven't had a spare tire in my last 6 cars going back 16 years. Manufacturers cut the cost and no longer supply them. 3 of those cars have been EVs, 3 have been ICE.

Re: EVs are the least reliable vehicle type: Consumer Reports

#33

Post by jm4 »

rrwo wrote: post #5

Interesting, since EVs supposedly have lower maintenance costs overall https://afdc.energy.gov/vehicles/electric_maintenance.html > All-electric vehicles typically require less maintenance than conventional vehicles because: > The battery, motor, and associated electronics require little to no regular maintenance > - There are fewer fluids, such as engine oil, that require regular maintenance > - Brake wear is signif…

I've had a few minor unplanned maintenance issues on a Tesla. Maybe slightly more than my gas cars now that I think about it, but not often enough that I'm thinking about it. Each one was handled at my house so it never really struck me as a significant inconvenience. In one case, they were the ones who showed up to replace a battery before I even knew there was an issue.

Overall, planned maintenance is significantly less on my Tesla than on my gas cars. It's a pretty easy car to own and drive. As others have pointed out, build quality isn't the greatest - at least not commensurate with the price. Now that other options are available, I think it's pretty hard to recommend Tesla, but I wouldn't call it a bad car. It's better than most out there despite its flaws.

Without a doubt, EV is better than gas in most situations. They are just easier, drive better, lower cost to operate, etc. I'm not buying what this article is selling.

Re: EVs are the least reliable vehicle type: Consumer Reports

#34

Post by standardUser »

throwaway22032 wrote: post #17

Is it not just the case that there simply hasn't been enough time to work out the kinks? The Tesla Model S is only ten years old. So my 20 year old bulletproof Japanese petrol car is twice the age of the entire class of modern day EVs. My petrol car could probably have done the first ten years of its' life with oil changes and nothing else at all. I mean, it's done the last few years that way. But there's been a cent…

It's interesting that Tesla, one of the newest automakers, has far more issues than the EVs made by the established players. So it may be less that the Model S is only 10 years old and more that Tesla itself is relativley young and inexperienced.

Re: EVs are the least reliable vehicle type: Consumer Reports

#35

Post by starfallg »

Gravityloss wrote: post #28
KaiserPro wrote: post #13

In Which magazine, EVs were about as reliable as normal cars, however if you removed tesla from the ratings, then EV reliability jumped significantly to way above standard petrol/diesel. https://www.which.co.uk/ has the details, but you need to be a member to find out. Basically the fit, finish and reliability of the accessories were trash.

I've seen the argument that "traditional auto makers" don't "get" how many people think - they concentrate on panel gaps or wind noise or door closing bump noise. Tesla isn't great there, but the Tesla software is good, and what some people call "kids" treat the car more like a smart phone. They don't care if your panel gaps are great - if your infotainment software is very laggy or crashes, it's a low quality car.

The Tesla infotainment system pre-2018/MCU2 is pretty laggy. The software also writes too much to the eMMC and bricks the MCU after a few years in the original design. And without Android Auto / Apple Carplay, you can't bypass it by plugging in your phone either, which is still a problem now.

Re: EVs are the least reliable vehicle type: Consumer Reports

#36

Post by eptcyka »

abraxas wrote: post #18

If you exclude Teslas and plug in hybrids then most EVs are incredibly reliable. Yes, power electronics wear out and break on occasion but that’s nothing in comparison to the complexity of an internal combustion vehicle. And car manufacturers only have a few years experience mass producing EVs. Once they gain experience there will be no competition from fossil fuel cars. The future is not internal combustion.

Yet, the original article specifically refers to the fact that hybrids seem to be more reliable on average than EVs currently. Might have something to do with the fact that the big Japanese powerhouses (Toyota, Honda and Mazda) haven't really spent any time developing high-power EV powertrains yet. But the atkinson-cycle and (relatively) small battery and elmotor combo has been around for 20 years and it's well honed in now.

The only reason Tesla drivetrains are reliable is because they've basically spent 10 years on developing not much else besides the drivetrain.

Re: EVs are the least reliable vehicle type: Consumer Reports

#37

Post by schipplock »

starfallg wrote: post #35
Gravityloss wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've seen the argument that "traditional auto makers" don't "get" how many people think - they concentrate on panel gaps or wind noise or door closing bump noise. Tesla isn't great there, but the Tesla software is good, and what some people call "kids" treat the car more like a smart phone. They don't care if your panel gaps are great - if your infotainment software is very laggy or crashes, it's a low quality car.

The Tesla infotainment system pre-2018/MCU2 is pretty laggy. The software also writes too much to the eMMC and bricks the MCU after a few years in the original design. And without Android Auto / Apple Carplay, you can't bypass it by plugging in your phone either, which is still a problem now.

https://www.tesla.com/support/8gb-emmc-recall-frequently-ask...

Re: EVs are the least reliable vehicle type: Consumer Reports

#38

Post by kube-system »

FredPret wrote: post #22
kube-system wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Paint is not a cosmetic issue, failing paint can cause mechanical failure due to corrosion. Improvements in automotive coatings is the number one reason that cars aren’t “worn out” at 5 years and 50,000 miles like they did in the 70s.

Still not the same category as engine failure though

Paint issues can cause problems much more severe in consequence and more expensive to repair than an engine failure.

On the body, they may cause corrosion perforations and cause your vehicle to fail inspection. They may flake or peel and require expensive repainting. On structurally significant parts, a coating failure can do this:

http://www.rustrepairinc.com/wp-content/gallery/tacoma/GQtFo...

Re: EVs are the least reliable vehicle type: Consumer Reports

#39

Post by jm4 »

tunap wrote: post #21
kube-system wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maintenance reliability Maintenance is planned. Reliability issues are unplanned failures. An EV may have brakes that last longer and no oil changes, but some EV manufacturers are adding gimmicky and buggy electronics, or poorly designed body hardware that fails.

My cousin recently had a flat tire in her EV. Roadside Assistance did not have a spare, required an expensive tow & her day was a total loss. Dragging a toddler along made a stressful experience worse, as well. I did not previously realize most(?) EVs have no spare tire included.

I had the same experience and I was livid. I was 4 hours from home and had to rent a car to get back. It was out in a less populated area without a lot of options and it was a holiday weekend. I had such a hard time finding a car. Some less than reputable place ended up letting me take a slightly crashed car. It was the only thing left that could drive.

My car was towed to a Tesla service center and I had to pay like $400 for a new tire. Then I had to rent another car to go pick mine up a couple days later. I was ready to set the damn thing on fire by the end of it.

The lack of a spare tire isn't exclusive to EV's though. Most don't include a spare anymore.

Re: EVs are the least reliable vehicle type: Consumer Reports

#40

Post by dsfyu404ed »

hotpotamus wrote: post #30
rrwo wrote: post #5

Interesting, since EVs supposedly have lower maintenance costs overall https://afdc.energy.gov/vehicles/electric_maintenance.html > All-electric vehicles typically require less maintenance than conventional vehicles because: > The battery, motor, and associated electronics require little to no regular maintenance > - There are fewer fluids, such as engine oil, that require regular maintenance > - Brake wear is signif…

That makes sense, but I can't imagine that brake wear in particular moves the needle very much. I typically just change the brake pads every 60,000 miles or so and that's like a $50 expense if you buy the nice pads and new hardware set for my car. Of course, I don't drive some exotic car with carbon ceramic stuff that costs $8K to replace (my car seems to stop well enough regardless).

>That makes sense, but I can't imagine that brake wear in particular moves the needle very much

It only matters if you're doing a TCO comparison that's time constrained to the first 100-150k where nothing expensive happens anyway. The difference between 2 vs 3 brake jobs or pad slaps vs pad slaps and rotors in that time will dominate the cost.

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