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Introducing Palantir's first open source releases

blog.palantir.com

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Re: Introducing Palantir's first open source releases

#31

Post by gojomo »

loopdoend wrote: post #22
gojomo wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair, Palantir says their name was associated with that HBGary proposal in error, severed all ties with HBGary, and denied offering any software that could be used for the tactics in the HBGary presentation. http://www.forbes.com/sites/andygreenberg/2011/02/11/palanti... Anyone is of course free to believe them or not, but our threads shouldn't be forwarding the vague allegations without also including the more…

That's funny, how did HBGary get Palantir's site license for Kapow Katalyst if they had nothing to do with them? http://leaks.anonamegame.com/aaron_hbgary_com/13188.html How did they get a pt-themis-bcc@palantir.com forwarding address? You call them vague allegations, but they look like facts to me. "In error" meaning "oops we got caught", or, facetiously "oh dear did I push the plan and scheme and conspire button ag…

Palantir did not say they had "nothing to do with" HB Gary.

Palantir said they should not have been portrayed as a part of the controversial Wikileaks-related offensive-actions proposal – because Palantir did not, and would not, approve of such tactics. Palantir also said, after that proposal, that they were breaking all contacts with HB Gary – which admits there were other ties.

The fact that HB Gary licensed some Palantir software or even had other project-related aliases with Palantir is wholly consistent with Palantir's explanation.

Perhaps any association whatsoever with HB Gary was a mistake. If so, doesn't Palantir get any credit for (belatedly) "sever[ing] any and all contacts with HB Gary"?

Also, as a government contractor, you don't necessarily have full control over every other contractor on related projects.

Re: Introducing Palantir's first open source releases

#32

Post by nivals »

jchonphoenix wrote: post #18
gbhn wrote: post #2

I think these were the same crowd drawing up plans to sell the government on how to crush wikileaks amid other miscellaneous dirty tricks. ( http://articles.businessinsider.com/2011-02-11/tech/30050719... )

How could Palantir software even accomplish what was claimed in the above links? I don't see how data visualization software can be used to crush wikileaks in the manner that the article says.

I spent two years working on this problem as my masters thesis. It's possible, not trivial.

Re: Introducing Palantir's first open source releases

#33

Post by jchonphoenix »

nivals wrote: post #32
jchonphoenix wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How could Palantir software even accomplish what was claimed in the above links? I don't see how data visualization software can be used to crush wikileaks in the manner that the article says.

I spent two years working on this problem as my masters thesis. It's possible, not trivial.

Which part? Data visualization or data visualization to crush wikileaks through defamation and ddos?

Can you elaborate? I'm just having a really time seeing how "Palantir was going to destroy wikileaks" which is what everyone says, but if you read the documents that were exposed, this doesn't really seem to be implied.

Additionally, the type of software Palantir makes couldn't really be used to destroy wikileaks in the ways claimed.

Yes, Palantir is a government contractor, but that doesn't mean they do evil things. You don't call google evil because HBGary uses google search. In the same way, I don't see how you can call Palantir evil for making a data visualization platform.

Re: Introducing Palantir's first open source releases

#34

Post by jchonphoenix »

jchonphoenix wrote: post #18
gbhn wrote: post #2

I think these were the same crowd drawing up plans to sell the government on how to crush wikileaks amid other miscellaneous dirty tricks. ( http://articles.businessinsider.com/2011-02-11/tech/30050719... )

How could Palantir software even accomplish what was claimed in the above links? I don't see how data visualization software can be used to crush wikileaks in the manner that the article says.

Additionally, this comment shouldn't be downvoted. I realize that people like to hate on Palantir, but I'm asking a legitimate question. And up to this point, nobody has given me a good answer.

Those of us that have been on HN for awhile know that you don't downvote things just because you disagree with them. This comment is really constructive and I'm disappointed that people are instinctively downvoting it because it can be construed as supporting a company they're biased against.

Re: Introducing Palantir's first open source releases

#35

Post by loopdoend »

gojomo wrote: post #31
loopdoend wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's funny, how did HBGary get Palantir's site license for Kapow Katalyst if they had nothing to do with them? http://leaks.anonamegame.com/aaron_hbgary_com/13188.html How did they get a pt-themis-bcc@palantir.com forwarding address? You call them vague allegations, but they look like facts to me. "In error" meaning "oops we got caught", or, facetiously "oh dear did I push the plan and scheme and conspire button ag…

Palantir did not say they had "nothing to do with" HB Gary. Palantir said they should not have been portrayed as a part of the controversial Wikileaks-related offensive-actions proposal – because Palantir did not, and would not, approve of such tactics. Palantir also said, after that proposal, that they were breaking all contacts with HB Gary – which admits there were other ties. The fact that HB Gary licensed some P…

The Wikileaks-offensive project was known as Team Themis. Perhaps you didn't realize that.

The email address pt-themis-bcc@palantir.com, along with the sharing of third party software, is enough to prove that they were a part of this action, whether they "approved" of it or not. Saying after you got caught that you didn't approve of the actions and using a young engineer as a scapegoat doesn't get you any credit in my books. (As if there were only one person working on this project, then why the bcc forwarder?)

The whole episode has been broken down and explained in great detail by third-parties other than the Palantir PR department, and my rebuttal is by no means an attempt at a full explanation. I am just pointing out they did indeed provide software that could be used for the tactics shown in the presentation, so there was no error.

Re: Introducing Palantir's first open source releases

#36

Post by gojomo »

loopdoend wrote: post #35
gojomo wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Palantir did not say they had "nothing to do with" HB Gary. Palantir said they should not have been portrayed as a part of the controversial Wikileaks-related offensive-actions proposal – because Palantir did not, and would not, approve of such tactics. Palantir also said, after that proposal, that they were breaking all contacts with HB Gary – which admits there were other ties. The fact that HB Gary licensed some P…

The Wikileaks-offensive project was known as Team Themis. Perhaps you didn't realize that. The email address pt-themis-bcc@palantir.com, along with the sharing of third party software, is enough to prove that they were a part of this action, whether they "approved" of it or not. Saying after you got caught that you didn't approve of the actions and using a young engineer as a scapegoat doesn't get you any credit in m…

You should provide links to where this is "explained in great detail", rather than more vague assertions.

If out of all the compromised HB Gary emails, one about sharing a license to third-party "application integration" software is the most incriminating one you can reference, that suggests a pretty flimsy case. HB Gary's entire corpus of email was compromised! Shouldn't there be at least one email from a Palantir employee showing enthusiasm about the offensive tactics, or review/approval of the deck, or something?

(And how exactly would the milquetoast not-created-by-Palantir Kapow Katalyst 'application integration platform' be "used for the tactics shown in the presentation", tactics like 'disinformation', 'fake documents', and 'cyber attacks'?)

Palantir's explanation remains unrefuted: that an employee gave the mistaken impression of participation in a specific effort that the company itself did not and would not support, as a matter of both policy and software capabilities.

Update: Looking for a good 'explained in great detail' overview, this write-up seems credible and balanced: http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/news/2011/02/the-ridiculo...

It suggests HB Gary was financially desperate to propose something big; Palantir was enticed by the size of the potential deal, but Palantir's payment demands were problematic for HB Gary. The Palantir employee(s) chasing the sale clearly knew and repeated HB Gary's dirty tactics bullet points, but it's not clear Palantir higher-ups saw the proposal as anything other than a potential large sale of their standard passive analysis stuff.

I know 'misrepresentation by overzealous employee' is a convenient excuse deserving some suspicion. But I also know that such vaguely-rogue sales-motivated oversteps happen all the time, even in much smaller organizations than Palantir.

Re: Introducing Palantir's first open source releases

#37

Post by gojomo »

loopdoend wrote: post #35
gojomo wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Palantir did not say they had "nothing to do with" HB Gary. Palantir said they should not have been portrayed as a part of the controversial Wikileaks-related offensive-actions proposal – because Palantir did not, and would not, approve of such tactics. Palantir also said, after that proposal, that they were breaking all contacts with HB Gary – which admits there were other ties. The fact that HB Gary licensed some P…

The Wikileaks-offensive project was known as Team Themis. Perhaps you didn't realize that. The email address pt-themis-bcc@palantir.com, along with the sharing of third party software, is enough to prove that they were a part of this action, whether they "approved" of it or not. Saying after you got caught that you didn't approve of the actions and using a young engineer as a scapegoat doesn't get you any credit in m…

There was a definitely a project called "Team Themis", yes. But some of the documents describing it make no mention of any offensive (active disinformation/cyber-attack) tactics, nor even of Wikileaks specifically – merely the usual kind of passive intelligence-gathering, from legitimate sources, that Palantir does. Then at some point the additional sizzle of proposed offensive tactics against Wikileaks got added. (In the most infamous presentation, the word 'Themis' is not mentioned.)

So to say "[t]he Wikileaks-offensive project was known as Team Themis" is begging the question.

My concern is whether Palantir as a corporation ever meant to endorse or participate in the specific 'dirty tricks' sizzle. I find Palantir's explanation plausible enough to deserve reporting, anywhere that the allegations against them are also reported: telling the full story requires it.

Everyone is welcome to their suspicions, but I've yet to see any evidence that definitively falsifies Palantir's explanation.

Re: Introducing Palantir's first open source releases

#38

Post by natch »

jchonphoenix wrote: post #30
rhizome wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anything's possible in the world of government contracting.

From the above article "We do not provide – nor do we have any plans to develop – offensive cyber capabilities. Palantir Technologies does not build software that is designed to allow private sector entities to obtain non-public information, engage in so-called “cyber attacks” or take other offensive measures." This is a true statement.

A true statement that looks carefully crafted to have huge loopholes.

Loophole 1: apparently they're OK with building software that is designed to allow public sector entities (bad governments) to obtain non-public information.

Loophole 2: I guess they're OK with building software that is designed to allow private sector entities to obtain public information [and... the part left unsaid: distill it to create insights not readily noticeable by others with access to the same public information, thus giving these private sector entities overwhelming advantages in things like figuring out how to manipulate politicians].

That stuff, from reading the quote, I am left believing they are OK with. Which means the statement just comes off as PR-speak, and disingenuous.

Re: Introducing Palantir's first open source releases

#39

Post by rhizome »

jchonphoenix wrote: post #30
rhizome wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anything's possible in the world of government contracting.

From the above article "We do not provide – nor do we have any plans to develop – offensive cyber capabilities. Palantir Technologies does not build software that is designed to allow private sector entities to obtain non-public information, engage in so-called “cyber attacks” or take other offensive measures." This is a true statement.

We do not provide – nor do we have any plans to develop

So, not right this second and, so far, not in the future. That leaves out a lot of time!

Re: Introducing Palantir's first open source releases

#40

Post by nivals »

jchonphoenix wrote: post #33
nivals wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I spent two years working on this problem as my masters thesis. It's possible, not trivial.

Which part? Data visualization or data visualization to crush wikileaks through defamation and ddos? Can you elaborate? I'm just having a really time seeing how "Palantir was going to destroy wikileaks" which is what everyone says, but if you read the documents that were exposed, this doesn't really seem to be implied. Additionally, the type of software Palantir makes couldn't really be used to destroy wikileaks in t…

I'm looking at data visualization to prevent corporate espionage. In reality it's data theft that brought Wikileaks in to the public consciousness.

I think that most people forget/aren't aware that the data was actually stolen by a 22 year old private. In fact, he goes in front of the court tomorrow: http://bit.ly/viXkwq

When I say 'prevent Wikileaks' via data visualization I'm referring to preventing corporate espionage and data leaks, not destroy the Wikileaks organization itself.

It's more of an easy way to explain it to people:

Them: 'Hey what's your thesis on?' Me: 'Preventing Wikileaks' Them: 'Oh, cool' confused expression

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