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Some companies find only humans can do the job

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Re: Some companies find only humans can do the job

#31
post #18

I spent a lot of time and effort deploying automation in customer service. The idea was to do it in ways that were really valuable, as opposed to spreadsheet positive. Our management had been toasted too many times by folks selling snake oil, but my god savings were needed. They just had to be real... So first issue: developing measures that measure real overall service productivity... this is hard, the gaming is int…

For customer service I find that the real automation "gains" tend either to be in debugging the rest of the organization or in driving a customer to give up on finding a human to talk to.

Re: Some companies find only humans can do the job

#32
post #22

Still the best solution is to combine robotics with humans. Humans are still infinitely flexible and much easier to dispose off than an expensive robot /sarcasm.

A new form a dystopian science fiction: one where robots have better labor rights than humans.

...fiction? At the very least, robots have full coverage healthcare.

Re: Some companies find only humans can do the job

#33
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probably better?

If getting jiggy with an industrial machine that could tear you in half is what floats your boat...

> If getting jiggy with an industrial machine that could tear you in half is what floats your boat...

People already get jiggy with other people who could easily bite off important bits.

The issue is trust, and I think that even with the simplest of failsafes[1], the machine juggling your important bits can be made more trustworthy than the human currently doing it.

[1] For example, failing in an off position, or using equipment that, even if overdriven at full force, will not have enough force to do damage. Having the clamping or piston mechanism driven off a spring can ensure that the maximum force applied depends on the stiffness of the spring, which gets softer with age, not harder.

There's multiple ways currently being used to make machines that interact with humans safe for humans no matter what happens.

Re: Some companies find only humans can do the job

#34
post #9
post #6

...yet. I'm sure things will look very different 20-30 years from now.

What do you expect to be better in 30 years? We have NOW insane computing power, cool stuff like insane size FPGAs and super fast GPUs. Mechanical parts work with fraction of micron accuracy. And yet we have millions of workers picking simple shaped objects manually every day around the world.

The problem is there's a lot of cheap labour that is more competitive than these robotics systems.

This is bad as it removes the incentive for innovation and keeps productivity low (profit per hour worked) so that ensures wages will stay low - it's bad for the workers and bad for the economy as a whole.

Re: Some companies find only humans can do the job

#35
post #31
post #18

I spent a lot of time and effort deploying automation in customer service. The idea was to do it in ways that were really valuable, as opposed to spreadsheet positive. Our management had been toasted too many times by folks selling snake oil, but my god savings were needed. They just had to be real... So first issue: developing measures that measure real overall service productivity... this is hard, the gaming is int…

For customer service I find that the real automation "gains" tend either to be in debugging the rest of the organization or in driving a customer to give up on finding a human to talk to.

> debugging the rest of the organization

This is true of automated IT processes in general; for human-operated processes there's always a certain amount of "slack" between how the process is written and what needs to be done to make it actually work. The knowledge for the latter is concentrated in lower-ranking staff - the "NCOs" - and often unknown and unknowable to those running the system. Converting the system to automation only converts the known process, so it tends to fail hard until the slack can be taken up elsewhere or learned and incorporated.

Re: Some companies find only humans can do the job

#37
post #32
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A new form a dystopian science fiction: one where robots have better labor rights than humans.

...fiction? At the very least, robots have full coverage healthcare.

But only with regards to health issues that affect their workplace performance. I don't think they are covered for problems that may affect them outside of normal working hours. Speaking of which, I don't think their work/life balance is that great.

Re: Some companies find only humans can do the job

#38
post #9
post #6

...yet. I'm sure things will look very different 20-30 years from now.

What do you expect to be better in 30 years? We have NOW insane computing power, cool stuff like insane size FPGAs and super fast GPUs. Mechanical parts work with fraction of micron accuracy. And yet we have millions of workers picking simple shaped objects manually every day around the world.

> And yet we have millions of workers picking simple shaped objects manually every day around the world.

It's designed to be like that

> Automation, the most advanced sector of modern industry as well as the model which perfectly sums up its practice, drives the commodity world toward the following contradiction: the technical equipment which objectively eliminates labor must at the same time preserve labor as a commodity and as the only source of the commodity. If the social labor (time) engaged by the society is not to diminish because of automation (or any other less extreme form of increasing the productivity of labor), then new jobs have to be created. Services, the tertiary sector, swell the ranks of the army of distribution and are a eulogy to the current commodities; the additional forces which are mobilized just happen to be suitable for the organization of redundant labor required by the artificial needs for such commodities.

Guy Debord, 1967

Re: Some companies find only humans can do the job

#39
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you expect to be better in 30 years? We have NOW insane computing power, cool stuff like insane size FPGAs and super fast GPUs. Mechanical parts work with fraction of micron accuracy. And yet we have millions of workers picking simple shaped objects manually every day around the world.

Robots are too expensive; that is to say; humans are (a lot) cheaper. If you want to buy a Spot robot to pick up garbage, you are out 70k for the base model, 100k+ with some plugins, they need to charge every hour so you need multiple and there are maintenance costs (it’s not like you buy one of these and have no other costs outside electric for 10 years). In many countries humans are a lot cheaper than that for thos…

> If you want to buy a Spot robot to pick up garbage

All of the things you say are true. There is one additional thing you don’t mention:

You can drum up people on minimal wage, you give them a roll of bin bags and point at a street and tell them (verbally with words) “pick up the litter on that street, once the bags are full put it in the truck. At the end of the day drive to for disposal” And it will with high probability happen!

Yeah they might goof off and you might need a foreman with a slightly higher wage to keep them busy, but that is basically all the “programing” you need to do.

How would the same work with a robot? Someone needs to program it. It is not unreasonable to think that one day we might have a “general trash collection” AI you can licence, but it is a lot of work to develop that system.

Whoever programs that system will need to solve issues such as:

- cover the whole street, but don’t wander into private estabilishments, peoples gardens or block the street

- pick up cigarete butts from the planters, but not the flowers, but do pick up the dried up fallen leaves/petals

- pick up the half shoe a reveller left on the corner, but don’t pick up the street performer’s hat with his coins in it

- hastle / don’t hastle the homeless based on opaque rules subject to change all the time

- shovel up the dirt from the pavement, but don’t try to dig a hole to china in the spots where grass should be but it dried out and it is basically just a patch of dirt

- empty the street bins, even the one which looks a bit odd (it was a one-off pilot project and we decided to go with a different suplier eventually) or the one which is hard to open (give it a good thunk, it jams since someone drove into it 5 months ago)

- leave the traffic cones be, but bag that one which was run over by a truck, dragged out of place, and got crumpled

And probably 15 other edge cases I can’t even think right now. And when your cleaner robot gets into a bad situation it probably won’t learn to avoid the same situation the next time.

And what happens if something changes? Let’s say you now want to collect aluminium into a separate bag, or there is a street festival with different temporary rules, or something?

To reprogram your robots you need highly trained, specialist crew, costing big bucks.

If your human crew needs “reprograming” you can email a middle manager paid 120% minimal wage who will make them change their way.

And all of this is “just software”. You have all this hassle even after all the battery and hardware issues you mentioned.

We might get street cleaning robots one day, but it is a very though task and i wouldn’t hold my breath.

Re: Some companies find only humans can do the job

#40
post #31
post #18

I spent a lot of time and effort deploying automation in customer service. The idea was to do it in ways that were really valuable, as opposed to spreadsheet positive. Our management had been toasted too many times by folks selling snake oil, but my god savings were needed. They just had to be real... So first issue: developing measures that measure real overall service productivity... this is hard, the gaming is int…

For customer service I find that the real automation "gains" tend either to be in debugging the rest of the organization or in driving a customer to give up on finding a human to talk to.

I've worked indirectly with customer support, in that we built FAQs and flows that made users do some troubleshooting themselves before contacting support - a simple couple-of-steps plan of checking your fuse boxes or checking the website for expected maintenance or known outages before calling support.

The next layer of automation would involve people going through one of those call menus; ideally once the customer ends up at an agent, they will have all their data and files right in front of them already.

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