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Is Truss Still PM?

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Re: Is Truss Still PM?

#31

Post by dane-pgp »

AndrewDucker wrote: post #28
mtlmtlmtlmtl wrote: post #25

From a democratic point of view the only thing that makes sense to me now is a snap election. The Tories have now had one PM resign in disgrace and then seemingly failed to set up an acceptable new cabinet. I see no reason why they should keep their mandate without renewed voter support. I suppose the king could instruct Labour to try to form a minority cabinet, but that's beyond my understanding of the procedures of…

By what process do you think there would be one? Unless the Conservatives decide that they don't want to be in power any more, there is no way to make an election happen.

> By what process do you think there would be one?

To give an extreme answer: a general strike.[0]

The government has already shown that it will remove senior ministers in response to market turmoil, so this sets the precedent that something like a general strike (which would be hugely damaging to the economy) could be enough to remove Truss.

In the short term that might only lead to a new "caretaker" PM who will attempt to run things for the next couple of years, but it might also embolden those who organised the general strike to try again, and again, until an election was called.

[0] https://metro.co.uk/2022/10/09/what-is-a-general-strike-as-u...

Re: Is Truss Still PM?

#32

Post by dane-pgp »

londons_explore wrote: post #30
Milner08 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without an election Labour dont have enough seats to be an effective minority government. They would need either lots of support from other parties. Best option right now is an election, its really our only path to stability. But the Tories will hang on for as long as they can as they are expecting to be wiped out if they held an election right now.

It would be nice if there was a way for the people to request an election anytime. For example... Anyone can gather 100 signatures asking for an election. Then the electoral commission will select 1000 people at random from the electoral register and ask them "Should the UK hold an immediate election?". And then if the majority of those responding say yes, then an election happens.

A method similar to that should certainly be introduced for triggering recall elections of individual MPs (possibly with a condition that the expense of the by-election be covered by crowd-funding).

To your point, though, there is "a way for the people to request an election anytime", and it has been used already, to little effect:

https://www.standard.co.uk/news/politics/when-next-general-e...

Re: Is Truss Still PM?

#33

Post by dane-pgp »

mtlmtlmtlmtl wrote: post #25

From a democratic point of view the only thing that makes sense to me now is a snap election. The Tories have now had one PM resign in disgrace and then seemingly failed to set up an acceptable new cabinet. I see no reason why they should keep their mandate without renewed voter support. I suppose the king could instruct Labour to try to form a minority cabinet, but that's beyond my understanding of the procedures of…

> I suppose the king could instruct Labour to try to form a minority cabinet

If you'd like to know more about the complex details of the role that the monarch could play in deciding the next PM (without an election), I recommend reading about the Lascelles Principles.[0]

You should particularly note one line from that article: "The convention was in abeyance from 2011 to 2022, ... these principles are thought to have been revived." (emphasis mine).

Basically, the UK's creaky, uncodified, thousand-year old constitution doesn't actually allow legal experts (much less the public) to know for sure whether these hugely consequential principles even exist any more.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lascelles_Principles

Re: Is Truss Still PM?

#35

Post by depr »

jemmyw wrote: post #24
denton-scratch wrote: post #8

The page said "Yes"; the page is wrong. The new Chancellor of the Exchequer is not under Truss's control, he's under the control of men in grey suits. If Truss doesn't control cabinet ministers, she isn't the Prime Minister. We have no government; we need a General Election immediately. This is a very dangerous situation.

It's not dangerous. Other countries have managed with their parliamentary system out of action for extended amounts of time. That's the point of having strong institutions and a civil service. The Tories haven't totally destroyed that yet, despite their efforts.

Indeed Belgium was without (elected) government for 652 days in 2018 - 2020.

Re: Is Truss Still PM?

#36

Post by implements »

denton-scratch wrote: post #8

The page said "Yes"; the page is wrong. The new Chancellor of the Exchequer is not under Truss's control, he's under the control of men in grey suits. If Truss doesn't control cabinet ministers, she isn't the Prime Minister. We have no government; we need a General Election immediately. This is a very dangerous situation.

Only dangerous if you think she’s going to go rogue with one of her Prerogative powers, which is unlikely given it appears she’s under close supervision by the Parliamentary Conservative Party.

Re: Is Truss Still PM?

#37

Post by benrapscallion »

SideburnsOfDoom wrote: post #29
klelatti wrote: post #22

Interesting and relevant post from David Allen Green [1] about the historical origins of the title 'Prime Minister'. > It was a title that was used just to describe the most dominant minister of the day, the one who controlled the cabinet and had the confidence of parliament – usually the First Lord of the Treasury but sometimes not. > And if today one asked an alien looking down from space who was the Prime Minister…

Yes, they're now using the term PMINO for Truss.

Full form?

Re: Is Truss Still PM?

#39

Post by denton-scratch »

jemmyw wrote: post #24
denton-scratch wrote: post #8

The page said "Yes"; the page is wrong. The new Chancellor of the Exchequer is not under Truss's control, he's under the control of men in grey suits. If Truss doesn't control cabinet ministers, she isn't the Prime Minister. We have no government; we need a General Election immediately. This is a very dangerous situation.

It's not dangerous. Other countries have managed with their parliamentary system out of action for extended amounts of time. That's the point of having strong institutions and a civil service. The Tories haven't totally destroyed that yet, despite their efforts.

But it's not just the parliamentary system that's out of action; it's the government. The nominal head of the government is obviously a dead duck. The tune the chancellor is playing is being called by the Bank of England (and others unnamed), none of whom was elected, and none of whose policy preferences have been presented to the public, let alone approved.

This would be a fantastic moment to stage a coup. And there are generals in-post who evidently favour something like that. But who knows - maybe it's already happened.

I think it's dangerous.

Re: Is Truss Still PM?

#40

Post by michaelt »

fdfaz wrote: post #16

Is there any reason to think she's about to leave or is this some wishful thinking from the usual suspects?

As well as the disastrous mini-budget and replacement of the chancellor?

One of the procedures by which she can be replaced involves 'letters of no confidence' being sent to the '1922 committee'. There are a bunch of newspaper articles saying that committee has been having discreet meetings and talking to Truss yesterday.

Which is the political equivalent of getting invited to a same-day meeting with your boss and HR entitled 'private meeting'.

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