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Starbucks CEO Howard Schultz's fight to stop a union uprising

washingtonpost.com

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Re: Starbucks CEO Howard Schultz's fight to stop a union uprising

#31

Post by hey2022 »

jelliclesfarm wrote: post #29
hey2022 wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because humans strive to become better over time, not worse. Practicing gratitude is important, but if we fixate on "well, at least we are not Bangladesh", then we won't have much motivation to improve things.

This is entirely irrelevant. In what way is America going to ‘become better’ by emulating European(a cluster of many countries) labour laws? European unemployment rates are much higher..at least 50% more..than American unemployment rates. There has been no relative increase in wages in Europe whereas it has been steadily increasing in America leading to better quality of life index. There is no comprehensive Europe v…

Why does comparing US to China make more sense than, say, US to Germany? China/US population size ratio is ~4.2, about the same as US/Germany (~4).

In the context of this discussion (unions) and in practical terms, US is culturally and historically much closer to Europe than it is to China.

Finally, I don't think I will ever get used to Americans obsessing over racism. Calm down.

Re: Starbucks CEO Howard Schultz's fight to stop a union uprising

#32

Post by jelliclesfarm »

hey2022 wrote: post #31
jelliclesfarm wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is entirely irrelevant. In what way is America going to ‘become better’ by emulating European(a cluster of many countries) labour laws? European unemployment rates are much higher..at least 50% more..than American unemployment rates. There has been no relative increase in wages in Europe whereas it has been steadily increasing in America leading to better quality of life index. There is no comprehensive Europe v…

Why does comparing US to China make more sense than, say, US to Germany? China/US population size ratio is ~4.2, about the same as US/Germany (~4). In the context of this discussion (unions) and in practical terms, US is culturally and historically much closer to Europe than it is to China. Finally, I don't think I will ever get used to Americans obsessing over racism. Calm down.

America is not relying on European work force for its productivity and GDP. It is relying on low wage tech outsourcing from non European countries.

https://georank.org/economy/germany/united-states (3.9T vs 20.5T)

https://georank.org/economy/china/united-states (13.6T vs 20.5T)

Also your original comment compared ‘Europe’ and not Germany or a specific country. The population of ‘Europe’ is roughly twice that of America.

Also: [..]The European Union's GDP was estimated to be around $17.9 trillion (nominal) in 2020, representing around one sixth of the global economy.[..]

Most of the tech sector relies on immigrant talent from places like India even though most stay on work visas without ever getting to enjoy the benefits they paid into the system.

If America were to follow European standards, then you’d think we’d be importing or outsourcing European labour. Oh wait! We don’t do that!

At least, we will stay warm this winter. And maybe save the world with our evil military when beckoned.

Racism exists. In every part of the world. Including HN. I would recommend that you not stay calm about it. Maybe you have the luxury of not caring if you are discriminated against, but many of us don’t have that privilege. Take care. I don’t enjoy these online ping pong matches unless you are consistent with your data.

Re: Starbucks CEO Howard Schultz's fight to stop a union uprising

#33

Post by klyrs »

jmpman wrote: post #25
acr25 wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That reply is garbage (deliberately?) The union is trying to do good for employees. In a better climate, Starbucks would be working with its unions to make sure that things for ALL employees are better.

Starbucks is not a coal mine. They’re located on street corners with other restaurants, and the employees can freely move from one unskilled role to the next. Unionization exists solely to extract additional wages that wouldn’t have been given willingly. They’re effectively extorting Starbucks. Same as any con trying to extort protection money from a shop.

So if you say to your employer "oh hey I've found a new job that's offering me $20k more than I'm making right now" and offer them a chance to match that offer, is that also extortion in your mind?

Re: Starbucks CEO Howard Schultz's fight to stop a union uprising

#34

Post by hey2022 »

jelliclesfarm wrote: post #32
hey2022 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does comparing US to China make more sense than, say, US to Germany? China/US population size ratio is ~4.2, about the same as US/Germany (~4). In the context of this discussion (unions) and in practical terms, US is culturally and historically much closer to Europe than it is to China. Finally, I don't think I will ever get used to Americans obsessing over racism. Calm down.

America is not relying on European work force for its productivity and GDP. It is relying on low wage tech outsourcing from non European countries. https://georank.org/economy/germany/united-states (3.9T vs 20.5T) https://georank.org/economy/china/united-states (13.6T vs 20.5T) Also your original comment compared ‘Europe’ and not Germany or a specific country. The population of ‘Europe’ is roughly twice that of Ameri…

I am struggling to follow your argument.

Yes, GDP of China is closer to GDP of US. However, I would argue that GDP per capita is more important in this discussion. GDP per capita of Germany is closer to US than China is. After all, we are discussing improving labor rights and higher GDP per capita is associated with a higher standard of living and, therefore, better working conditions and benefits.

> Also your original comment compared ‘Europe’ and not Germany or a specific country.

That was you who switched from Europe to individual countries ("Comparing America to 5 million peopled NZ and 60 million peopled France is an entirely useless exercise."), so my comparison to Germany is based on that.

> If America were to follow European standards, then you’d think we’d be importing or outsourcing European labor. Oh wait! We don’t do that!

Right. We need the unions because labor laws are outdated and we need to improve them. Similar to how European labor unions fought for the rights of workers in Europe. The fact that US outsources labor to lower standard countries is not as amazing as you might think it is.

> At least, we will stay warm this winter. And maybe save the world with our evil military when beckoned.

You are really jumping all over the place. Unions, racism, war - if you don't like "online ping pong matches" then please at least keep your comments more on-topic.

> Racism exists. In every part of the world. Including HN.

This is such a pointless virtue signaling. Let me try to play this game...

Comparing America to 1.4 billion peopled China and 1.38 billion peopled India is an entirely useless exercise. Unless the purpose of the comparison is to simply pit countries with a majority male government with other countries with a male government… therefore ignoring comparable countries from Europe that are led by women. And that’s is frankly Sexist.

Sexism exists. In every part of the world. I would recommend that you not stay calm about it. Maybe you have the luxury of not caring if you are discriminated against, but many of us don’t have that privilege.

Really contributing to the discussion, right?

Re: Starbucks CEO Howard Schultz's fight to stop a union uprising

#35

Post by jmpman »

klyrs wrote: post #33
jmpman wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Starbucks is not a coal mine. They’re located on street corners with other restaurants, and the employees can freely move from one unskilled role to the next. Unionization exists solely to extract additional wages that wouldn’t have been given willingly. They’re effectively extorting Starbucks. Same as any con trying to extort protection money from a shop.

So if you say to your employer "oh hey I've found a new job that's offering me $20k more than I'm making right now" and offer them a chance to match that offer, is that also extortion in your mind?

No, but if you say, hey, we’re all going to burn down the store if you down pay us $20k more… that’s more like what a union is threatening.

There’s practically no limit on what a union can extort from a company. If a company invests in capital to make its employees more efficient (faster coffee grinders - if we’re keeping with the Starbucks theme), then the union can demand that savings in their wages.

Unionization makes it less likely for businesses to make these capital investments.

My theory is that’s why almost no airlines have ever been profitable. All the gains in cost/passenger seat mile gets taken by the pilot unions.

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