Europe: How to Become Poor Peasants Again • Hacker News Board

Re: Europe: How to Become Poor Peasants Again

#31

Post by TheLoafOfBread » Tue, Oct 04, 2022, 2:59 PM UTC

weatherlite wrote: post #14

csdvrx wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, with inflation, war, various shortages, lack of power for the winter, I'm very trustful in human nature, but that may be a little too much for Europe.

They could always make a new deal with the Russians if they will face imminent famine and the collapse of industry (which I don't believe they are). All in all sounds like hyperbole to me. A harsh recession is very likely though. Seriously what is the theory here, they care about Ukraine so much they are willing to implode for it with no plan b? I find it hard to believe.

Last time it was Germany.

- It militarized Rhineland, nothing happened

- It got Luftwaffe operational again, nothing happened

- It annexed Austria, nothing happened

- It was given Sudetenland, it was even encouraged by allies

- It annexed rest of Czechoslovakia, nothing happened.

- It started war with Poland, Allies declared war and then nothing happened.

- Only when Germany started to conquer Norway, Allies have finally started to wake up.

Re: Europe: How to Become Poor Peasants Again

#32

Post by teagoat » Tue, Oct 04, 2022, 3:04 PM UTC

To sum up the article, they claim:

  * Somebody (probably America) sabotaged the Nordstream 2 gas pipeline.
  * That's related to the war in Ukraine because? wars are always about resources?
  * The EU doesn't have any options to replace the gas that needs to come from Russia.
  * That's going to drive all EU citizens back to an agrarian lifestyle.
  * And also, the EU is too weak of an institution to defend its citizens.

It reeks of conspiracy theory to me. EU citizens should hate the US for driving them into poverty and should embrace Russia invading their neighbor.

One of the first results that comes up for me when I search "Nordstream 2" is the Brooking institute discussing similar conspiracy theories spreading among podcasters in the US, parroting the Kremlin: https://www.brookings.edu/techstream/u-s-podcasters-spread-k...

Re: Europe: How to Become Poor Peasants Again

#33

Post by roody15 » Tue, Oct 04, 2022, 3:04 PM UTC

rags2riches wrote: post #15

roody15 wrote: post #9

Good Article. No question the events in Ukraine coincide with Nord Streak 2 about to go online. The amount of war time propaganda on the Ukraine conflict has hit overdrive status and I would expect this article to “disappear” quickly. There is little room to discuss the larger geopolitic situation. Instead a simplified narrative of “Putin is an evil dictator invading a peaceful democracy and must be stopped at all co…

What would happen if you tried discussing something outside of the allowed narrative?

Watch just immediate downvotes.. or often one liner replies. Essentially anything outside of the narrative = Russian sympathizer.

Reminds me of the bit activity around election cycles.

Re: Europe: How to Become Poor Peasants Again

#34

Post by hackandthink » Tue, Oct 04, 2022, 3:06 PM UTC

(Massimo Gramellini - corriere.it) - For anyone who feels like a citizen of Europe, it was sad to see proof that our German-speaking compatriot Olaf Scholz essentially thinks of his own comforts. Not content with having backed the Dutch comrade in turning a deaf ear (it must be said) to the request to put a ceiling on the price of gas, the chancellor of Berlin hijacked two hundred billion of the German budget on the German bills, with many greetings to whom - for example the Italian budget - those two hundred billion do not have them.

Re: Europe: How to Become Poor Peasants Again

#35

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Oct 04, 2022, 3:06 PM UTC

roody15 wrote: post #33

rags2riches wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What would happen if you tried discussing something outside of the allowed narrative?

Watch just immediate downvotes.. or often one liner replies. Essentially anything outside of the narrative = Russian sympathizer. Reminds me of the bit activity around election cycles.

[deleted]

Re: Europe: How to Become Poor Peasants Again

#36

Post by calaverainfo » Tue, Oct 04, 2022, 3:07 PM UTC

This is a textbook piece of propaganda targeting the smart people, a real gem. The core principle lies in this sentence "The war in Ukraine is mostly a sideshow". With fascinating lightness it completely inverts the size of a story of one of the biggest countries in the world becoming fascist and attacking a neighbor in most boody war since WW2 which was several years in the making and a story of one infrastructure attack. The war and it's culprit is too obvious to attack directly, but what a propagandist can still try is to shift focus from the obvious main story to uncertain sidestory and switching their importance. Using the uncertainty of the sidestory it's then possible to use a lot of true arguments which convinces even the smart people if they miss the initial "significance inversion".

Re: Europe: How to Become Poor Peasants Again

#37

Post by roody15 » Tue, Oct 04, 2022, 3:09 PM UTC

a2tech wrote: post #19

djaouen wrote: post #11

This is stupidity. Renewable energy will win in the end.

Also I don't believe for a minute that natural gas production in the US supplying Europe was the driver for this war. If it was, wouldn't have the push from Russia been towards securing the path of their pipelines instead of the Crimean peninsula?

The driver was to prevent the possible rise of Russia. Had Nordstream 2 been allowed to come online. Russia would have reaped enormous benefits and its influence in Europe would have strengthened.

This was clearly not in the US’s geopolitical interest.

Re: Europe: How to Become Poor Peasants Again

#38

Post by brabel » Tue, Oct 04, 2022, 3:13 PM UTC

TheMagicHorsey wrote: post #20

This is Russian/Tankie propoganda. Notice how the author subtly implies that America was the instigator in cutting Russian supplies to EU. Ignoring the fact that it was Putin who invaded Ukraine and Crimea, and started this whole sequence of events. It was Putin who decided to cut gas supplies, long before the pipeline was sabotaged. This is motivated article which speaks half-truths with the goal of casting events i…

> It was Putin who decided to cut gas supplies, long before the pipeline was sabotaged.

That's factually incorrect. Germany said before the invasion, and followed through with it, that it would not allow NordStream2 to come into operation if Russia invaded.

Listen: Putin did start the war and caused most problems that are causing Europe's energy prices to skyrocket... but how can we just forget the order of event so quickly and start spreading fake claims when clearly it's not even necessary to make a point? Just say how it would be immoral to buy gas from Russia after the war was started regardless of consequences to the prices in Europe.

Re: Europe: How to Become Poor Peasants Again

#39

Post by yucky » Tue, Oct 04, 2022, 3:18 PM UTC

teagoat wrote: post #32

To sum up the article, they claim: * Somebody (probably America) sabotaged the Nordstream 2 gas pipeline. * That's related to the war in Ukraine because? wars are always about resources? * The EU doesn't have any options to replace the gas that needs to come from Russia. * That's going to drive all EU citizens back to an agrarian lifestyle. * And also, the EU is too weak of an institution to defend its citizens. It r…

I'm curious what the alternate theory of Nord 2 sabotage is? Does anybody other than the US benefit?

Re: Europe: How to Become Poor Peasants Again

#40

Post by bitL » Tue, Oct 04, 2022, 3:31 PM UTC

NOKIA is pretty much a muster for the future of Europe. Made a headless chicken by US investors that needed to save their investments in Microsoft and going from a dominant force in one emerging market to an afterthought in two years.