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NYU organic chemistry professor terminated for tough grading

nytimes.com

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Re: NYU organic chemistry professor terminated for tough grading

#31

Post by forgetbook »

nh23423fefe wrote: post #29
incogitomode wrote: post #4

A point made in the article's comments — an experienced doctor working in prenatal diagnosis says he struggled with organic chemistry, has not found it relevant to his career, and found biochemistry in med school more approachable. He concludes with: > It makes no sense that a course so peripheral to successful, high quality medical careers is a gatekeeper > to medical school applications at undergraduate programs th…

Cool nobody needs to learn algebra because no one uses it. Learning itself has no value, sends no signal. Gates are bad let everyone in. Struggling is bad and an indication that something in the world should change.

Would you evaluate entrance to your roofing company based on a worker's ability to solder circuit boards?

Re: NYU organic chemistry professor terminated for tough grading

#32

Post by hilbert42 »

forgetbook wrote: post #27
engineer_22 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems to be a pervasive attitude. Today a group of my colleagues received their grades on a linear algebra test. The class average was below the failing mark. One of my acquaintances remarked: "The professor is going to have to do something about these grades, they can't fail the whole class!" Maybe it's the class that should do something about the grades...

It is trivially simple for an educator(edit: typo) to write a test that every student fails, curve the grades into a normal distribution, and place blame on students while showing a normal distribution of outcomes to administration. Do you think that practice produces better learning?

Despite my comments above, some examiners can be bastards. Deliberately setting examinations to fail students is counterproductive and demoralizing (sometimes to the extent that potentially good students leave the course).

In practice, examiners who do this are usually inexperienced and they soon learn to discontinue the practice for all the obvious readons. That's why in this instance I'd be inclined to think the students are at fault as this NYC prof has long and extensive experience (he'd have learned not to so long ago).

Re: NYU organic chemistry professor terminated for tough grading

#33

Post by pydry »

engineer_22 wrote: post #26
hilbert42 wrote: post #21

"And how hard should organic chemistry be anyway?" Heaven forbid, it should be as hard as is necessary to achieve the stated outcome. If someone does a course in organic synthesis and graduates from that course then a company hiring the person expects him or her to be able to synthesize chemicals to the extent or level that the course coverd. Graduates need to know what they're taught and companies expect their prosp…

It seems to be a pervasive attitude. Today a group of my colleagues received their grades on a linear algebra test. The class average was below the failing mark. One of my acquaintances remarked: "The professor is going to have to do something about these grades, they can't fail the whole class!" Maybe it's the class that should do something about the grades...

>Maybe it's the class that should do something about the grades...

Why?

Re: NYU organic chemistry professor terminated for tough grading

#34

Post by tinalumfoil »

dqv wrote: post #13
fiat_fandango wrote: post #9

This is how the united states fails - our education institutions fail to hold the bar and let the pillars of real education turn to sand. Admittedly, initially in college I was a horrible student. But I got better, admittedly after re-taking a few classes. It cost me, but I learned from it. Not just maths but the lesson of having to grind and struggle to get better at something when it felt like I sucked and had zero…

>This is how the united states fails - our education institutions fail to hold the bar and let the pillars of real education turn to sand. That’s why we should be providing college for free ( to the student , it will cost us all money in the form of taxes). If you fail Ochem, it won’t be thousands of dollars lost (yes maybe thousands from society, but the burden is not on the individual). It might set you back, but n…

I'm not sure the economics of paying for everyone's tuition, but I don't think this is the issue here. NYU has a $6 billion endowment (~100k/student, projecting modestly from Wikipedia's numbers) and costs nearly $40k in tuition after aid. They're flush with money, and so is the average student (or their family at least). Harvard of all places is known for grade inflation, so I don't think low standards is a money problem.

Re: NYU organic chemistry professor terminated for tough grading

#36

Post by Apocryphon »

nh23423fefe wrote: post #29
incogitomode wrote: post #4

A point made in the article's comments — an experienced doctor working in prenatal diagnosis says he struggled with organic chemistry, has not found it relevant to his career, and found biochemistry in med school more approachable. He concludes with: > It makes no sense that a course so peripheral to successful, high quality medical careers is a gatekeeper > to medical school applications at undergraduate programs th…

Cool nobody needs to learn algebra because no one uses it. Learning itself has no value, sends no signal. Gates are bad let everyone in. Struggling is bad and an indication that something in the world should change.

Ah, the ol' whiteboarding/Leetcoding in tech interviews debate.

Re: NYU organic chemistry professor terminated for tough grading

#37

Post by cannaceo »

hilbert42 wrote: post #21

"And how hard should organic chemistry be anyway?" Heaven forbid, it should be as hard as is necessary to achieve the stated outcome. If someone does a course in organic synthesis and graduates from that course then a company hiring the person expects him or her to be able to synthesize chemicals to the extent or level that the course coverd. Graduates need to know what they're taught and companies expect their prosp…

I completed medical school back in 2012. Here's the unfortunate rub with this particular class--organic chemistry is a requisite for medical school and probably shouldn't be. The class is mostly pre-med students and very few chemistry majors. It seems that once upon a time some administrators decided that students should complete 2 years of chemistry and organic chemistry happened to be the most common second year course available.

Physics courses, at least at my alma mater, were separated in to physics for physics majors("honors physics"), physics for engineers, and physics for life sciences. A similar structure would be a great compromise to maintain the quality of education for those continuing on to perform organic synthesis versus those who want to be physicians. I was exposed to exactly zero organic chemistry in medical school or beyond.

Re: NYU organic chemistry professor terminated for tough grading

#38

Post by Apocryphon »

yucky wrote: post #22
faeriechangling wrote: post #14

They make him sound like a mediocre professor, but it sounds like grading a class of students objectively which were setup to fail by a pandemic is what ultimately did him in. It’s clear to me what the implications are. A generation of students won’t understand what they’re doing and they will be shoved through the system anyways because of some high minded sentiments about failing students not being the best way to…

Yup, and then some of them will end up killing patients due to these lowered "feel-good" standards. Thanks NYU.

Standards that are more in line with the rest of the faculty?

https://twitter.com/misandryinc/status/1577006428539482113/p...

Re: NYU organic chemistry professor terminated for tough grading

#39

Post by anonAndOn »

detaro wrote: post #24
anonAndOn wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> what's the purpose of retroactively withdrawing? GPA inflation. Failed O-chem and ruined your chances of a top med school? Not to worry, how about a do-over!

So it's a special exception to let a student repeat a class they failed first try?

Students can always repeat a class to get a better grade but this removes the stain of a failure on your report card.

Re: NYU organic chemistry professor terminated for tough grading

#40

Post by puffoflogic »

In case anyone is thinking this sort of thing won't affect you because you've graduated... These students will become your doctors and your other medical staff in a decade. There will be no magic cure that prevents that from happening even if the problem were solved today. And it won't be.
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