How Palantir Will Steal the NHS • Hacker News Board

Re: How Palantir Will Steal the NHS

#31

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Oct 02, 2022, 4:54 PM UTC

origin_path wrote: post #24

DanBC wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have no doubt they waste tremendous amounts of money. Do you have any examples? > If done properly privatisation and deregulation could just save it. How do you de-regulate healthcare without killing people? We already have private providers of NHS healthcare, and they usually hand the contracts back because they can't afford to do it for the money. We could experiment by paying private providers more money, but…

Their apparent addiction to hiring full time diversity officers on six figure salaries is a neuralgic one, not so much because of the scale of the waste (small) but because it's so obviously waste, so easy to fix and so obviously designed purge the NHS of anyone who isn't ideologically pliant, regardless of the political cost of provoking large numbers of taxpayers and voters. But the real problem with waste (really,…

[deleted]

Re: How Palantir Will Steal the NHS

#32

Post by theGnuMe » Sun, Oct 02, 2022, 5:52 PM UTC

Nextgrid wrote: post #26

FridayoLeary wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anecdata: i know of somebody who had a suspected stroke . waiting times to get an MRI scan was weeks long. 8 hour waits in A&E is considered normal and Ambulances often don't show up on time. Getting an appointment with any kind of specialist within a reasonable time frame is flat out impossible in lots of cases. The NHS when it works is wonderful, but at the moment it's in deep crisis. I have no doubt they waste tre…

I'm not sure whether the "deep crisis" is to blame. I've had occurrences of wait times worth several hours in A&E a year before the pandemic, and this was in the middle of London. If they can't even provide adequate service in London , I don't want to imagine how bad it must be outside of it.

It's probably better for things that don't need to be transferred to a higher level of service and since you're in the system already you might get expedited. For higher levels of trauma that need immediate action you lose time do to the transfer. Same dynamic operates in the US.

Re: How Palantir Will Steal the NHS

#33

Post by sorokod » Sun, Oct 02, 2022, 6:01 PM UTC

origin_path wrote: post #24

DanBC wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have no doubt they waste tremendous amounts of money. Do you have any examples? > If done properly privatisation and deregulation could just save it. How do you de-regulate healthcare without killing people? We already have private providers of NHS healthcare, and they usually hand the contracts back because they can't afford to do it for the money. We could experiment by paying private providers more money, but…

Their apparent addiction to hiring full time diversity officers on six figure salaries is a neuralgic one, not so much because of the scale of the waste (small) but because it's so obviously waste, so easy to fix and so obviously designed purge the NHS of anyone who isn't ideologically pliant, regardless of the political cost of provoking large numbers of taxpayers and voters. But the real problem with waste (really,…

"governments spent most of the 20th century trying and failing"

This kind of easily debunkable nonsense (the NHS act came into effect in 1948) takes much away from the rest of your forceful and evidence free argument.

Re: How Palantir Will Steal the NHS

#34

Post by origin_path » Sun, Oct 02, 2022, 8:23 PM UTC

sorokod wrote: post #33

origin_path wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Their apparent addiction to hiring full time diversity officers on six figure salaries is a neuralgic one, not so much because of the scale of the waste (small) but because it's so obviously waste, so easy to fix and so obviously designed purge the NHS of anyone who isn't ideologically pliant, regardless of the political cost of provoking large numbers of taxpayers and voters. But the real problem with waste (really,…

"governments spent most of the 20th century trying and failing" This kind of easily debunkable nonsense (the NHS act came into effect in 1948) takes much away from the rest of your forceful and evidence free argument.

That was a reference to attempts to have the state run entire industries, not the NHS specifically. The forced collectivization of agriculture pre-dates the NHS by decades. People learned from that, but too narrowly. In modern Britain the food supply is not run by the government even though it's more critical to health than the NHS is, but healthcare is state run and is now experiencing a USSR style collapse.

As for evidence free, well, how do you explain the BBC story that was presented as evidence? Or how about the 999 callout times, or the many other metrics that show the NHS has clearly broken to the point that even the most basic healthcare cannot be taken for granted? The evidence is everywhere.

Re: How Palantir Will Steal the NHS

#35

Post by sorokod » Sun, Oct 02, 2022, 9:12 PM UTC

origin_path wrote: post #34

sorokod wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"governments spent most of the 20th century trying and failing" This kind of easily debunkable nonsense (the NHS act came into effect in 1948) takes much away from the rest of your forceful and evidence free argument.

That was a reference to attempts to have the state run entire industries, not the NHS specifically. The forced collectivization of agriculture pre-dates the NHS by decades. People learned from that, but too narrowly. In modern Britain the food supply is not run by the government even though it's more critical to health than the NHS is, but healthcare is state run and is now experiencing a USSR style collapse. As for…

I'll skip the references to USSR and collectivisation.

The BBC story, taken at face value, shows a system that has failed the patient. Not for the last time too.

NHS needs to be compared not to some ideal setup that never fails and is cheap to run but an actual alternative.

Here the alternative seems to be US style, privitised, extract-max-value-for-the-shareholders system.

You need a great deal more than a BBC story to justify something like that

Re: How Palantir Will Steal the NHS

#36

Post by DanBC » Mon, Oct 03, 2022, 1:43 PM UTC

origin_path wrote: post #24

DanBC wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have no doubt they waste tremendous amounts of money. Do you have any examples? > If done properly privatisation and deregulation could just save it. How do you de-regulate healthcare without killing people? We already have private providers of NHS healthcare, and they usually hand the contracts back because they can't afford to do it for the money. We could experiment by paying private providers more money, but…

Their apparent addiction to hiring full time diversity officers on six figure salaries is a neuralgic one, not so much because of the scale of the waste (small) but because it's so obviously waste, so easy to fix and so obviously designed purge the NHS of anyone who isn't ideologically pliant, regardless of the political cost of provoking large numbers of taxpayers and voters. But the real problem with waste (really,…

> Their apparent addiction to hiring full time diversity officers on six figure salaries is a neuralgic one, not so much because of the scale of the waste (small) but because it's so obviously waste, so easy to fix and so obviously designed purge the NHS of anyone who isn't ideologically pliant, regardless of the political cost of provoking large numbers of taxpayers and voters.

Here's a member of staff, a black man, who was attacked by a patient. He defended himself. The patient made a complaint, and the staff member was disciplined and dismissed.

He took the case to employment tribunal, claiming that the original attack was racist, and that the complaint was racist, and that the following investigation did not account for that racism and so was itself racist.

He won, because there was clear evidence that what he said was true. He got a 7 figure pay out.

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2018/nov/23/former-nhs-tru...

You've said that fewer people die under a privatised healthcare system - the US has worse outcomes, lower life expectancy, because of its private health care. You're simply wrong.

That guy could have got emergency health care - he could have walked into an MIU, or an ED, or he could have called 999.

> The sad thing is, cases like that one are increasingly not a mere outlier.

There's a million healthcare contacts per day. So far you've highlighted one where the patient got terrible care. It made national news because it's an outlier. Where are all the others?

> The NHS is not regulation of health care. Most countries have heavily regulated but private healthcare

You brought up de-regulation. Here's what you said:

> If done properly privatisation and deregulation could just save it.

There's no point continuing the discussion if you can't keep up with your own arguments.

Re: How Palantir Will Steal the NHS

#37

Post by [deleted] » Mon, Oct 03, 2022, 1:44 PM UTC

origin_path wrote: post #34

sorokod wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"governments spent most of the 20th century trying and failing" This kind of easily debunkable nonsense (the NHS act came into effect in 1948) takes much away from the rest of your forceful and evidence free argument.

That was a reference to attempts to have the state run entire industries, not the NHS specifically. The forced collectivization of agriculture pre-dates the NHS by decades. People learned from that, but too narrowly. In modern Britain the food supply is not run by the government even though it's more critical to health than the NHS is, but healthcare is state run and is now experiencing a USSR style collapse. As for…

[deleted]

Re: How Palantir Will Steal the NHS

#38

Post by origin_path » Wed, Oct 05, 2022, 7:20 AM UTC

sorokod wrote: post #35

origin_path wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That was a reference to attempts to have the state run entire industries, not the NHS specifically. The forced collectivization of agriculture pre-dates the NHS by decades. People learned from that, but too narrowly. In modern Britain the food supply is not run by the government even though it's more critical to health than the NHS is, but healthcare is state run and is now experiencing a USSR style collapse. As for…

I'll skip the references to USSR and collectivisation. The BBC story, taken at face value, shows a system that has failed the patient. Not for the last time too. NHS needs to be compared not to some ideal setup that never fails and is cheap to run but an actual alternative. Here the alternative seems to be US style, privitised, extract-max-value-for-the-shareholders system. You need a great deal more than a BBC story…

Such stories are unique to the UK, as far as I know, and they aren't rare anymore. Maybe third world countries too.

The problem here is real and the causes are clear from history - ignoring history because you don't like it is no solution. My own father now cannot get healthcare in the UK for an injury he has, point blank cannot get it. There are no appointments at the local hospital with no information on when new appointments can be booked, it takes weeks to even see a doctor at all - maybe over the phone if you're lucky. They're talking about going private but all my family members in the UK seem to thinking that at once and the UK private sector is woefully under-provisioned due to decades of near religious pro-NHS fervor and an inability to compete against tax-funded services.

The US in particular is demonized in the UK and it's dumb. Firstly, there are tons of private healthcare systems elsewhere in the world that aren't the US, it's the default mode, not an exception. Secondly, healthcare in the USA is actually excellent. If you have insurance then what's happening to my family just wouldn't occur. All the controversy in the US is around people who can't or won't buy insurance yet who don't qualify for Medicare/Medicaid, and the employer link that is a quirk of their tax code specifically. Phasing out the NHS wouldn't require the UK to bias the tax code in favor of employment-linked health insurance, and it wouldn't mean needing to exactly duplicate their benefits schemes. Those two things aren't fundamental to the private run healthcare model.

Re: How Palantir Will Steal the NHS

#39

Post by origin_path » Wed, Oct 05, 2022, 7:26 AM UTC

DanBC wrote: post #36

origin_path wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Their apparent addiction to hiring full time diversity officers on six figure salaries is a neuralgic one, not so much because of the scale of the waste (small) but because it's so obviously waste, so easy to fix and so obviously designed purge the NHS of anyone who isn't ideologically pliant, regardless of the political cost of provoking large numbers of taxpayers and voters. But the real problem with waste (really,…

> Their apparent addiction to hiring full time diversity officers on six figure salaries is a neuralgic one, not so much because of the scale of the waste (small) but because it's so obviously waste, so easy to fix and so obviously designed purge the NHS of anyone who isn't ideologically pliant, regardless of the political cost of provoking large numbers of taxpayers and voters. Here's a member of staff, a black man,…

Your first case doesn't have any relation to diversity officers, that's a matter for the courts. The outcome would have been the same regardless.

The US has bad healthcare outcomes for a lot of reasons unrelated to their health care system, like obesity - a problem for the UK too. It's not due to basic, fixable stuff like "the hospital has no appointments" or "doctors aren't under any obligation to actually serve patients".

"That guy could have got emergency health care - he could have walked into an MIU, or an ED, or he could have called 999."

The 999 service that's also in collapse? He'd have been told to piss off and stop wasting NHS time because it wasn't an "emergency", as it'd already been mis-diagnosed as something trivial. He didn't realize how serious it was until it was already far too late. Why are you trying to defend this outcome? It's a terrible, atrocious end for a man who did nothing wrong, and no, this sort of thing is not an outlier. We can see it in the millions of mission cancer diagnoses.

Your last points seem to be continuing the previous confusion. You can abolish the NHS and still have healthcare regulations, although the act of abolishing the NHS is itself an act of de-regulation. It means you have fewer of them, not none.