Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Don't Just Ask: Why Women Don't Negotiate

theatlantic.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

31–40 of 111 posts

Re: Don't Just Ask: Why Women Don't Negotiate

#31

Post by po »

What I like about this article is that it's not trying to point blame. It's not that men are actively trying to shut out women or making a hostile environment (although some probably are), it's that they do it in subtle ways without even noticing. It's not that women are too timid, it's that they are making the optimal short-term choice.

I'm reminded of a study I read a looong time back (sorry I don't remember where) that looked at how in situations where there is a shared armrest (think movie theatre or airplane) between two strangers, the men tended to be the ones who end up using it more. That wasn't malice, it was just an unthinking gesture. Ever since then, I've been hyper-aware of seat armrests. :-)

I think one takeaway from this is to be aware of the dynamics in your daily conversations and just watch. Pay attention to what's going on. If a man and a woman talk over each other, cast your eyes to the woman instead of the man if you think she has something interesting to say. Subtle things like this can make a big difference. If you do this in the office, the feel like you value them more and you will find yourself with new allies.

I would also suggest that if enough women ignored the stigma associated with being labeled a bitch, they would move the line is drawn a bit. That's not always possible but again, being aware of it helps.

Re: Don't Just Ask: Why Women Don't Negotiate

#33

Post by mjdwitt »

rachelbythebay wrote: post #4

I read "Women Don't Ask" and "Ask For It" in the past couple of years. I proceeded to try to ask for things, like being named the tech lead, a promotion, or just more money. It did not help. In fact, I think it may have gotten me branded as bitchy for attempting to break out of the mold instead of "knowing my place". A lot of that was probably a function of where I was working, but this goes on at other places as wel…

Honest question: did you notice any differences between the reactions of your male coworkers vs. the reactions of your female coworkers?

I've noticed while watching my sisters and various girlfriends interact with other women that women seem to be faster to label each other negatively than most men I know would label other men negatively. Perhaps, however, I just hang out with mean women.

Re: Don't Just Ask: Why Women Don't Negotiate

#34

Post by yummyfajitas »

jdp23 wrote: post #21
MatthewPhillips wrote: post #17

Has anyone examined the possibility that wage is less of a motivating factor for the women in question; they don't negotiate because they are getting something out of it more important (to them) than the money.

Yes, that's been examined and repeatedly discredited.

Could you cite the repeated examination/discrediting?

Re: Don't Just Ask: Why Women Don't Negotiate

#35

Post by jdp23 »

mjdwitt wrote: post #28
jdp23 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why is that the case? Any ideas? The situation gives men an enormous advantage. And the vast majority of the 90%+ of Fortune 500 CEOs and tech startups and VCs who are guys don't seem to have any interest in changing it. Why do you think that's the case?

What makes those male power figures focus on excluding women specifically from their roles? I doubt they care about the gender of their competition; they just want themselves to be the ones in power and nobody else, man or woman.

I didn't mean to suggest that they're focused on excluding women from their roles.

It's more that the people at the top have gotten there in the current situation. So emotionally they tend not to want to acknowledge what a huge advantage they and their peers have had getting there ... and they don't have any incentive to change things in a way that reduces that advantage.

Re: Don't Just Ask: Why Women Don't Negotiate

#36

Post by jseliger »

po wrote: post #31

What I like about this article is that it's not trying to point blame. It's not that men are actively trying to shut out women or making a hostile environment (although some probably are), it's that they do it in subtle ways without even noticing. It's not that women are too timid, it's that they are making the optimal short-term choice. I'm reminded of a study I read a looong time back (sorry I don't remember where)…

McArdle has also written about this kind of stuff before: http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2008/06/yes-soci... ; http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2008/06/a-pack-n... :

I've had about ten requests from men to explain the phrase "winning the cocktail party". None from women.

A male friend, who spends a not inconsiderable time cruising feminist sites, was one of those who asked what it meant. I find it odd to realize that most men don't observe something that is obvious to every woman I know: that there is a competitive male dynamic to groups that is completely different from the way female groups act. They don't know, of course, because unless the group is overwhelmingly female, the dynamic of any mixed group always defaults to male, with women fading back into supporting conversational roles. Maybe it's the kind of thing you can only observe by contrast to the extremely anti-competitive nature of female groups.

The easiest way to put it (and this is hardly original) is that men in groups are focused on their role within the group. Women in groups are focused on the group. Men gain status by standing out from the group; women gain status by submerging themselves into it--by strengthening the group, often at the expense of themselves.

Both these styles have advantages and drawbacks. I'm not trying to establish that one is better than the other. But I'm kind of shocked, though I shouldn't be, to realize that men don't even see it, the way they don't see catcalling, because it never happens when they're around.

I've seen this kind of behavior a lot more often since I began looking for it.

BTW, if you're interested in cognitive biases more generally, check out Daniel Kahneman's Thinking, Fast and Slow (http://www.amazon.com/Thinking-Fast-Slow-Daniel-Kahneman/dp/...).

Re: Don't Just Ask: Why Women Don't Negotiate

#37

Post by mjdwitt »

jdp23 wrote: post #35
mjdwitt wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What makes those male power figures focus on excluding women specifically from their roles? I doubt they care about the gender of their competition; they just want themselves to be the ones in power and nobody else, man or woman.

I didn't mean to suggest that they're focused on excluding women from their roles. It's more that the people at the top have gotten there in the current situation. So emotionally they tend not to want to acknowledge what a huge advantage they and their peers have had getting there ... and they don't have any incentive to change things in a way that reduces that advantage.

I agree that they have no incentive to help others take their power, I just don't see that their desire to hold onto such power is directly preventing women from taking it. I think it is far more likely that the fact that there are so few female role models in such positions of power is to blame for the extreme gender bias in addition to societal pressures to sacrifice a career for children–because obviously men can't stay home with the kids. That'd be unmanly.

Re: Don't Just Ask: Why Women Don't Negotiate

#39

Post by rachelbythebay »

arkitaip wrote: post #8
rachelbythebay wrote: post #4

I read "Women Don't Ask" and "Ask For It" in the past couple of years. I proceeded to try to ask for things, like being named the tech lead, a promotion, or just more money. It did not help. In fact, I think it may have gotten me branded as bitchy for attempting to break out of the mold instead of "knowing my place". A lot of that was probably a function of where I was working, but this goes on at other places as wel…

Were you able to practice your delivery on some colleagues in the business? Because the way we communicate negotiation strikes me as absolutely crucial in not coming of as aggressive. Not that I don't believe you when you say that there's a double standard wrt the kind of negotiation behavior is accepted from men and women.

I can't say I was able to really practice this stuff.

Here's one thing which did happen, though: while describing a particular failure, I said " and dropped the ball on this one". One of the guys on my team really objected to that. He didn't like hearing it from me.

I thought for a second and said, "hey, wait, you don't react like that when says the same thing". He just got really quiet and never really addressed the issue. I tried again: "How is it that the same words coming out of my mouth are bad when they were just fine coming out of the mouth of some man? What year is this again?"

I find that's what tends to happen: they get quiet and mentally set some bit on me that means "evil bitch".

Re: Don't Just Ask: Why Women Don't Negotiate

#40

Post by rachelbythebay »

mjdwitt wrote: post #33
rachelbythebay wrote: post #4

I read "Women Don't Ask" and "Ask For It" in the past couple of years. I proceeded to try to ask for things, like being named the tech lead, a promotion, or just more money. It did not help. In fact, I think it may have gotten me branded as bitchy for attempting to break out of the mold instead of "knowing my place". A lot of that was probably a function of where I was working, but this goes on at other places as wel…

Honest question: did you notice any differences between the reactions of your male coworkers vs. the reactions of your female coworkers? I've noticed while watching my sisters and various girlfriends interact with other women that women seem to be faster to label each other negatively than most men I know would label other men negatively. Perhaps, however, I just hang out with mean women.

I didn't have any female coworkers. I was at Google for four and a half years and none of my three teams had any "diversity" beyond myself. Team #1 was a production service SRE team, while #2 and #3 were development/SWE roles.

I had to go up and out to talk to people on other teams. We wound up forming a little group of women in operations (think pager duty) and talked about these things. We all noticed a bunch of similar problems but I can't say I ever got any solutions out of it.

Post reply on HN