Is this from the same guys who want to get rid of cryptography for the public or at least get some backdoors?
Germany's blanket data retention law is illegal, EU top court says
31–40 of 178 posts
Re: Germany's blanket data retention law is illegal, EU top court says
#32Is the ECJ kind of a Supreme Court that can overturn member state laws and rulings? I had the impression member states were 100% sovereign within the EU...
Who is 100% sovereign? Any kind of treaty makes you less "sovereign". I believe it's the same question about freedom. Are you a free person if you have a job, pay mortgage or marry someone?
Re: Germany's blanket data retention law is illegal, EU top court says
#33Earlier quoted context omitted.
Member states are sovereign insofar as the EU institutions only have jurisdiction because the member states allow them to do so. EU law only applies because local law says it applies. The ECJ is the highest court in any of the member countries because the law in those countries say it is. This differs from the situation in the US where Texas couldn't pass an amendment to their state constitution declaring that they a…
Couldn’t Texas exit the US in the same way that European countries can exit the EU?
EU treaties explicitly say that a member can leave them (in particular article 50 of the Treaty of the EU).
In general a country can't get out of an international treaty unless the treaty itself has provisions for it. Of course the only way to enforce an international treaty, if threats or sanctions are not enough, is war.
Re: Germany's blanket data retention law is illegal, EU top court says
#34Earlier quoted context omitted.
> EU treaties are not a constitution and the constitution the people gives itself stands above all Germany [1] and Hungary [2] played with this fire. In summary, no. Treaties have force of law. If a country improperly ratified their EU treaties, they need to amend their constitution (if it exists) or admit they never properly joined the EU in the first place. Given the latter means economic collapse for most EU membe…
Once the people choose to no longer follow the EU Supreme Court, thus, as a follow up, no longer choose to follow the EU treaties, they exit the EU just as the UK did. No country is or can be forced to be a EU member. Just because there are economic implications does not mean the EU treaties are above the countries‘ constitutions the people actually chose to enact.
This is true of any law, there isn't actually anything except common agreement that constitutions should be treated more seriously giving them extra status, and there isn't anything but the consent of (enough) people giving laws any power: nobody is ever forced to follow any law, they are simply punished if they don't.
However, once you decide to stay within the law it is indeed possible to have EU treaties stand above the constitution. In situations where you've added bits in your constitution that the EU treaty has priority, acting like this isn't true is simply breaking the law.
Re: Germany's blanket data retention law is illegal, EU top court says
#35Earlier quoted context omitted.
> I had the impression member states were 100% sovereign within the EU... ~80-90% depending on how you measure. The judiciary of all countries is technically under the ECJ jurisdiction. People can sue their countries, and local court decisions can be appealed to the European court structure (ECJ/ECHR). That was in fact one of the Brexit talking points, judiciary independence.
Just to be clear, the ECHR is not an EU court and brexit Britain is still under its jurisdiction. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Convention_on_Human_R...
And one cannot appeal a case from the court of a member state to the CJEU. Member states' courts can (in some cases must) refer specific questions of law, but that is not an appeal by any party to the dispute.
Re: Germany's blanket data retention law is illegal, EU top court says
#36Earlier quoted context omitted.
Member states are sovereign insofar as the EU institutions only have jurisdiction because the member states allow them to do so. EU law only applies because local law says it applies. The ECJ is the highest court in any of the member countries because the law in those countries say it is. This differs from the situation in the US where Texas couldn't pass an amendment to their state constitution declaring that they a…
Couldn’t Texas exit the US in the same way that European countries can exit the EU?
Some states tried that in the 1860s. It was traumatic.
Re: Germany's blanket data retention law is illegal, EU top court says
#37Our data retention laws get overturned all the time. Usually already by our constitutional courts. Sadly our politicians don’t care much and don’t get punished, so they just try it again and again and again and usually it’s in effect for a while before the courts give judgement. I really can’t explain where Politikverdrossenheit (political apathy) comes from. edit: The last sentence is sarcasm
Political apathy comes from the political party that would most benefit from low turnout. If you are disappointed with politics that is a reason to vote. If you don't care, that's a valid reason not to vote
Been preaching that for years, but I can certainly see where "it doesn’t matter anyway" comes from.
Re: Germany's blanket data retention law is illegal, EU top court says
#38Earlier quoted context omitted.
EU treaties are not a constitution and the constitution the people gives itself stands above all.
And here I was thinking that German (and to some extent French) politico-economic interests stand above all. Silly me...
Right now the political and economic interests of Germany and France is a strong EU. Won't always be true, though I can't foresee the circumstances when it might change.
Likewise, for most of my life, my personal political and economic interests included a strong UK (still does even though I moved to Germany) and USA even though I never lived there.
Re: Germany's blanket data retention law is illegal, EU top court says
#39Earlier quoted context omitted.
Member states are sovereign insofar as the EU institutions only have jurisdiction because the member states allow them to do so. EU law only applies because local law says it applies. The ECJ is the highest court in any of the member countries because the law in those countries say it is. This differs from the situation in the US where Texas couldn't pass an amendment to their state constitution declaring that they a…
Couldn’t Texas exit the US in the same way that European countries can exit the EU?
No, the EU has a specific process for leaving by asking, while the US states can only leave if a sufficient number of the other states agree to it.
The EU isn't really a country, it's a free trade agreement with an unusually democratic (by the standard of FTAs) process for updating its own rules.
Re: Germany's blanket data retention law is illegal, EU top court says
#40Earlier quoted context omitted.
The sovereign members of the EU have ratified treaties of European Union law themself.
* some of the then-elected governments There was a national referendum before the Lisbon treaties that was declined by the Netherlands and France, which in turn "watered down" the EU constitution into the Lisbon treaties which are now in use, which were then ratified without any national votes. As the German politician Martin Scholz once said, if the EU were to apply for an EU membership, it would get declined becaus…
> As the German politician Martin Scholz once said, if the EU were to apply for an EU membership, it would get declined because of a lack of a democratic foundation.
That's the way it should be.
In a democratic state, the state itself is sovereign, while the citizens are not. The rights of the citizens depend on the constitution, which can be changed according to a democratic process. The EU is a union of sovereign states. Due to that sovereignty, decision-making in the EU cannot be fully democratic, as that would violate the sovereign rights of the member states.